Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson dynamic

[Micael]

Not even in The Batman show where we see a smaller younger looking Dick Grayson did I ever got father/son dynamic. Bruce is too young and you can see Dick recognizes that.

[Ascended]

It’s both father/son and big brother/little brother. And more. It’s multifaceted. They wear many hats for the other.

This.

In the early days there was definitely a father/son dynamic at play, but sometimes (especially as Dick got a little older but Bruce functionally stayed the same age) a sibling-esque dynamic would rise to the surface, and a lot of the time I don't think you can really put Dick and Bruce in a "family" box at all; Bruce was a mentor but not exactly a father or a brother, he was something that was similar but not truly familial.

[Frontier]

Dick's parents are freshly dead when Bruce takes him in. If I was 12 years old and some dude in his early 20s took over caring for me when I was orphaned, I don't think "father" is how I would view him since he'd be way younger than my actual parents (my parents had me in their late 30s though, so maybe it's just me). Just as a general older mentor figure, which can encompass both a big sibling/pseudo-parental role. It's more complicated than just viewing him as a father or not, by its very nature it needs to be viewed as all of the above.

But at a very formative moment in a child's life, obviously an adult figure is going to have an impact on them, and they usually don't emphasize much of an age difference between Bruce or John Grayson. And at that point a child probably needs a father more than they do a big brother.

But even that is just a fan estimate, right? Not official canon?

Because in the first part of Robin's Reckoning, the flashbacks use the same character model for Bruce as he would have in the MOTP flashbacks. In which Andrea says she'd seen him "on campus," implying they were still in college or only recently graduated, and Dick being orphaned typically doesn't happen much later than when Bruce first starts. And I think that holds true for DCAU, since it's not like Batman is presented as having accumulated much adventures at that point. He doesn't even meet the majority of his rogues gallery in that canon until long after Robin had been established

I think it was a best guess estimate from context clues. Most Superheroes age slowly .

But yeah, I think the first season of B:TAS was like the Long Halloween in the sense that Batman's been fighting mobsters and normal criminals for years until the Supervillains suddenly start popping up.

Not even in The Batman show where we see a smaller younger looking Dick Grayson did I ever got father/son dynamic. Bruce is too young and you can see Dick recognizes that.

I did, but I guess it depends on expectations/how you look into it. They didn't feel like siblings to me in there.

[Gaius]

I got more master/apprentice vibe from The Batman’s Bruce/Dick dynamic than anything particularly familial like father/son or brothers.

Batgirl and Robin definitely had a big sister/younger brother relationship in the show though.

[SiegePerilous02]

But at a very formative moment in a child's life, obviously an adult figure is going to have an impact on them, and they usually don't emphasize much of an age difference between Bruce or John Grayson. And at that point a child probably needs a father more than they do a big brother.

But again, an adult figure who is only in their early 20s is going to come across different to a child from an adult figure who is in their 30s-40s. They didn't emphasize an age difference between John and Bruce, but I don't think they need to because it's pretty much a given that there is one. Bruce becomes Batman in his early 20s, too young to actually have a child that is Dick's age.

If you were 12, would you view the 21 year old who was adopting you in quite the same way as the 30/40 something man who was raising you up to that point?

[Frontier]

But again, an adult figure who is only in their early 20s is going to come across different to a child from an adult figure who is in their 30s-40s. They didn't emphasize an age difference between John and Bruce, but I don't think they need to because it's pretty much a given that there is one. Bruce becomes Batman in his early 20s, too young to actually have a child that is Dick's age.

If you were 12, would you view the 21 year old who was adopting you in quite the same way as the 30/40 something man who was raising you up to that point?

Well, I never got the impression there's that much of an age difference in any continuity so I guess maybe that conception didn't kick in for me ?

Although speaking of The Batman, John Grayson there was Kevin Conroy meeting Rino Romano's Batman and was killed by Mark Hamill's Tony Zucco.

[bearman]

As Their ages were never cannon, it’s almost irrelevant if Bruce was biologically “old enough”. I don’t think he was emotionally mature enough…he most likely never thought of himself as having kids at that point in his life. In Dick, he recognized a version of himself, and stepped in to help.
Certainly a guardian and mentor, but more brother than father. But, as noted above, it was a complicated relationship, and both Bruce and Dick wore several hats.

[Nite-Wing]

There's a lot of things that fans just accept at face value
Partly because no one has ever real gone in depth in regards to what Bruce is doing in general
He is at the very least in his mid to late 20s taking in young teens and irresponsibly exposing them to his life's mission

Bruce is just too young and has too little life experience to be a father to any of the robins. Damian is the only exception because he's actually his father but everyone else either A doesn't listen to Bruce or B resents Bruce in some way shape or form.
Not typical of your usual father/son dynamic
Brothers is much more appropriate especially if you are having Bruce be such an antagonistic force around all of them

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, I never got the impression there's that much of an age difference in any continuity so I guess maybe that conception didn't kick in for me ?

IDK, the Graysons are obviously the equivalents for the Waynes, so I imagine them as roughly the same age as Thomas and Martha at the time of their deaths.

And no way has Bruce ever been that age when the Graysons die. He's 25-27 tops depending on the continuity, if not even younger (I believe Morrison said they view Bruce as 21 when he first becomes Batman, as there is no other way to fit in his entire timeline). I'm kind of the opposite, it's never occurred to me that Bruce would be the same age as John Grayson. He's always come across as at least a decade younger, if not more.

[Frontier]

IDK, the Graysons are obviously the equivalents for the Waynes, so I imagine them as roughly the same age as Thomas and Martha at the time of their deaths.

And no way has Bruce ever been that age when the Graysons die. He's 25-27 tops depending on the continuity, if not even younger (I believe Morrison said they view Bruce as 21 when he first becomes Batman, as there is no other way to fit in his entire timeline). I'm kind of the opposite, it's never occurred to me that Bruce would be the same age as John Grayson. He's always come across as at least a decade younger, if not more.

I guess it just never came across that way to me. At least I always feel it's roughly at an age where he's appropriate as an adoptive father (to where I don't think age matters that much).

[bat39]

I think this is closer to the truth. Older siblings can double as parental figures.

I lean more towards older brother/little brother though. BTAS was my gateway into the Bat-verse, and that had a 20 year old Dick and a Bruce that didn't come off as being much older than the 29-32 range (he had only been active for about 10 years or so, and he's either still in college or only recently graduated when he meets Andrea). And since the show was mostly based on the Bronze Age, the dynamic was similar to that in those comics. No early 30s person has a son old enough to be in college, so Dick looking to Bruce as only a father figure doesn't make much sense for them at all.

We have emphasis on Dick being 10-12 as Robin (and thanks to Frank, I lean towards 12 lol), but did the Golden Age comics cement Bruce's age? Or, much like how media depicts high school students while being played by 20 somethings, was he fresh out of college and just being depicted as behaving/drawn as older than he was? Like a vague "he's in the adult stage of life" without a firm age number. Julie was even his college sweetheart, wasn't he? Bruce could be 21-22 when he first becomes Batman and Dick joins him fairly quickly, even before Alfred, so the age gap being around a decade seems to suit them the most. Most of the father-son stuff seems like post-Crisis retcons that established Bruce as being 25 when he becomes Batman and being active for a couple years before Robin showed up, which alters their dynamic to how it was originally.

I agree with you completely! The best way to label their relationship in some kind of 'conventional' sense is to have Bruce be the much older brother who's had to function as a parent and/or guardian.

As far as Bruce's age in the Golden Age goes, the Earth Two Batman was established as being born in 1915, making him around 24-25 when he first meets Dick in 1940 (and yeah, I know Earth Two and whatever continuity it establishes is a retcon and not 100% representative of the real Golden Age, but it is indicative). And Dick was born in 1928, making him around 11-12 when he's taken in by Bruce. So its an age-gap of around 13 years...which is pretty much in line with their relative ages across comic-book continuities (New 52 notwithstanding).

Incidentially, if we look at live-action, Adam West and Burt Ward were 17 years apart (still not a wide enough gap for a father-son relationship), Val Kilmer and Chris O'Donell were only 11 years apart (so definitely not a father-son relationship), George Clooney and Chris O'Donell were 10 years apart (so the same applies)...but interestingly Iain Glen and Brandon Thwaites are 28 years apart. Now I haven't watched much of Titans but I'm willing to be its an outlier where Bruce and Dick really are depicted as being akin to father and son, because the age gap there more than justifies it.

It'd be interesting to see how old they make Dick in The Batman's sequels, assuming they introduce Robin. Pattison will be in his late thirties by the time they get around to filming those, though the character will probably be played as being in his early thirties. I get the feeling they'll cast an actor in his early to mid twenties, and present him as being around 18-19 (or an actor in his early twenties who can pass for 16). Either way, I don't see Pattison playing a father-figure.

[exile001]

I've always seen it as a father/son dynamic.

Sure, there are other elements such as Alfred evolving into a surrogate father for both and their dynamic in the 70's being more brotherly, but for me Bruce chose to care for Dick after his parents' deaths.

Bruce saw the mirror of his own tragedy and wanted to help Dick in a way he had not been helped and mentored/molded Dick into a better version of himself. The guidance and support he wishes he'd found (or been open to) after his parents' murder.

Personally, I feel reducing them to brothers (especially with Alfred basically raising Dick) infantalises Bruce, reduces his growth and does a disservice to both their relationship and one of Bruce's greatest achievements.

Devin Grayson wrote an issue of Gotham Knights where Bruce finally officially adopted Dick that hits me right in the feels.

[Bat-Meal]

Despite the age gap, or lack thereof, father/son and mentor/pupil.

I can't take any of the Bat-Family's comparative ages too seriously because it keeps changing. With the exception of Damian, most of them seem to keep getting younger.

[bat39]

I've always seen it as a father/son dynamic.

Sure, there are other elements such as Alfred evolving into a surrogate father for both and their dynamic in the 70's being more brotherly, but for me Bruce chose to care for Dick after his parents' deaths.

Bruce saw the mirror of his own tragedy and wanted to help Dick in a way he had not been helped and mentored/molded Dick into a better version of himself. The guidance and support he wishes he'd found (or been open to) after his parents' murder.

Personally, I feel reducing them to brothers (especially with Alfred basically raising Dick) infantalises Bruce, reduces his growth and does a disservice to both their relationship and one of Bruce's greatest achievements.

Devin Grayson wrote an issue of Gotham Knights where Bruce finally officially adopted Dick that hits me right in the feels.

Bruce being the older brother/guardian figure who serves as a parent to Dick covers most of the points you've mentioned, and is actually more in line with how the characters have traditionally always been depicted.

Despite the age gap, or lack thereof, father/son and mentor/pupil.

I can't take any of the Bat-Family's comparative ages too seriously because it keeps changing. With the exception of Damian, most of them seem to keep getting younger.

I get what you mean...but interestingly enough, the relative ages of Bruce and Dick have been fairly consistent, in the comics at least, over the decades.

In the Golden Age, Bruce was in his early to mid 20's, and Dick started out as being 10-12 years old (going by Earth Two chronology, Bruce was 25 when Dick was 12). In the Bronze Age, Dick was depicted as a 17-18 year old college student when Bruce was firmly supposed to be around 29. Post-COIE, Bruce is around 27-28 when a 12 year old Dick becomes Robin.

Going beyond the comics, BTAS canonically had Dick as being around 18-19, and Bruce in his early 30's. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, the live-action adaptations of the Dynamic Duo have had an age gap of 10-17 years between the actors of Bruce and Dick (Ian Glen and Brandon Thwaites on Titans are the outliers here with a nearly 30 year age gap!)

If you average it all out, Bruce and Dick across most adaptations and continuities, are somewhere around 12-15 years (give or take a couples years more on either side) apart in age. Bruce may have been Dick's guardian, may have even at times played the role of a father-figure, but he's never been old enough to be Dick's father, and frankly never has outright acted as Dick's father.

[SiegePerilous02]

I get what you mean...but interestingly enough, the relative ages of Bruce and Dick have been fairly consistent, in the comics at least, over the decades.

In the Golden Age, Bruce was in his early to mid 20's, and Dick started out as being 10-12 years old (going by Earth Two chronology, Bruce was 25 when Dick was 12). In the Bronze Age, Dick was depicted as a 17-18 year old college student when Bruce was firmly supposed to be around 29. Post-COIE, Bruce is around 27-28 when a 12 year old Dick becomes Robin.

Going beyond the comics, BTAS canonically had Dick as being around 18-19, and Bruce in his early 30's. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, the live-action adaptations of the Dynamic Duo have had an age gap of 10-17 years between the actors of Bruce and Dick (Ian Glen and Brandon Thwaites on Titans are the outliers here with a nearly 30 year age gap!)

If you average it all out, Bruce and Dick across most adaptations and continuities, are somewhere around 12-15 years (give or take a couples years more on either side) apart in age. Bruce may have been Dick's guardian, may have even at times played the role of a father-figure, but he's never been old enough to be Dick's father, and frankly never has outright acted as Dick's father.

Agreed on all points. And since Bruce's entire setup as Batman reads as a traumatized kid grown into a young adult who still acts immature for his age (what with being an adventurer based on Zorro and wearing a flashy costume and having all the cool toys and cars), it's like a big kid hanging out with a buddy than strictly father/son or even mature older sibling/younger sibling.