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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Question (and I know we all have different ideas of who Peter is to some extent): do you think Peter was characterized well during Slott’s run?
    Slott's run was oh so very long, so saying *anything* about "the run" is hard. I think Peter during Big Time was perfectly good characterization - the Horizon Labs stuff, him nixing the spell that makes people forget in order to save people during Spider-Island, No One Dies (or whatever), etc. were all pretty well in line with most Spider-man runs, except Peter had a job up to his competence. Even his last moment in Dying Wish - realizing he's going to die and foisting some morality on Doc Ock - was entirely part and parcel to Peter's long-standing streak of ruining his own life for the common good. Peter post Superior was a little too "I'm what the plot needs me to be here" for the run up to Spider-verse. RYV is obviously a fan favorite because it has Peter's voice pretty well down. Worldwide is ... something else.
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  2. #182
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    I feel like if you break the best Spencer stories down to their own individual arc, you get some great moments. The podcast issue with Jonah, the two part in the bar with Boomerang, the issue where Jonah tells the Kingpin to stuff it. And there are even sparks of brilliance in individual issues, the issue where Kindred keeps killing Peter, the Hunted arc was great, the return of sin eater was fun. There are points where this comic was a great comic, but while I’m entertained and glad, I have to ask, was it worth this? Spencer didn’t really tell a story, now I don’t know if it was him or editorial, but Sinister War wasn’t a story, it was an excuse for a retcon. It was one big fight where barely anything happens and it feels rushed as Hell. In a year, People aren’t going to remember Sinister War or what happened in it exactly, but they will remember the retcons.

    Now am I glad Sins Past is retconned, sure. But was it worth building up 3 years to retcon it? Not really.
    It’s a run that doesn’t stand alone, and unless you’ve been reading Spider-man for 30 years (I’m not even 30, but I have been reading since Sins Past so I do get a lot of what happened) then you’ll be lost. If you came into Spider-man through superior or Spider-verse, the this run won’t mean much to you.

    For that, the run is a dud. But unlike other duds, I’m not angry, disappointed and I don’t even hate what’s going on. I’m entertained by each issue and it has left me guessing. The run as a whole is a 5\10. I don’t know how often I’ll go back to it. But if it means we get something great post beyond then at least we got something.

    Personally, Beyond sounds like it can really just clean things out for a while. It’s fixing the window that Spencer broke while he cleaned up the Spider house.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I feel like if you break the best Spencer stories down to their own individual arc, you get some great moments. The podcast issue with Jonah, the two part in the bar with Boomerang, the issue where Jonah tells the Kingpin to stuff it. And there are even sparks of brilliance in individual issues, the issue where Kindred keeps killing Peter, the Hunted arc was great, the return of sin eater was fun. There are points where this comic was a great comic, but while I’m entertained and glad, I have to ask, was it worth this? Spencer didn’t really tell a story, now I don’t know if it was him or editorial, but Sinister War wasn’t a story, it was an excuse for a retcon. It was one big fight where barely anything happens and it feels rushed as Hell. In a year, People aren’t going to remember Sinister War or what happened in it exactly, but they will remember the retcons.

    Now am I glad Sins Past is retconned, sure. But was it worth building up 3 years to retcon it? Not really.
    It’s a run that doesn’t stand alone, and unless you’ve been reading Spider-man for 30 years (I’m not even 30, but I have been reading since Sins Past so I do get a lot of what happened) then you’ll be lost. If you came into Spider-man through superior or Spider-verse, the this run won’t mean much to you.

    For that, the run is a dud. But unlike other duds, I’m not angry, disappointed and I don’t even hate what’s going on. I’m entertained by each issue and it has left me guessing. The run as a whole is a 5\10. I don’t know how often I’ll go back to it. But if it means we get something great post beyond then at least we got something.

    Personally, Beyond sounds like it can really just clean things out for a while. It’s fixing the window that Spencer broke while he cleaned up the Spider house.
    If I may, Sins past retcon was barely a throwaway panel in the issue.It isn't the goal of the run.
    In the issue you say Kindred open up a hellhole(for the lack of a better term), and Mj was told to face her Sins.
    W/ Mephisto involved and all the OMD teases, it's pretty clear that's what's going on.Also his last line, he clearly says this isn't the thing that we're here for.

    You're not the only one who thinks Sins past was the goal here, may I ask why?

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    If I may, Sins past retcon was barely a throwaway panel in the issue.It isn't the goal of the run.
    In the issue you say Kindred open up a hellhole(for the lack of a better term), and Mj was told to face her Sins.
    W/ Mephisto involved and all the OMD teases, it's pretty clear that's what's going on.Also his last line, he clearly says this isn't the thing that we're here for.

    You're not the only one who thinks Sins past was the goal here, may I ask why?
    I do think it is, but I’m out getting my hopes up for OMD to be undone, and even if it, was it worth 3 years for it? In those 3 years, we could have got something special, but instead it’s 3 years just undo a story. I mean I’ll be happy to return to the ASM of 2004, but you can do that by writing good stories, not retcons.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    I do think it is, but I’m out getting my hopes up for OMD to be undone, and even if it, was it worth 3 years for it? In those 3 years, we could have got something special, but instead it’s 3 years just undo a story. I mean I’ll be happy to return to the ASM of 2004, but you can do that by writing good stories, not retcons.
    It can't be undone, only addressed.
    The run hasn't been about that entirely, Black Cat, kraven have been fixed.Boomerang has had a great overarching arc.Lizard had great stories.Superior Ock has been brought back in some capacity, Tombstone was humanized, so was JJJ and both made better.Carlie and Teresa were likeable and the later has a big seed planted for her which can be use by another writers, same w/ Mr negative, etc.
    And could you tell me what those good stories are in your opinion, I think Hunted, Sins rising, etc. were great stories and stuff w/ Kingpin, Boomerang, New Avengers, etc. was decent too.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    If I may, Sins past retcon was barely a throwaway panel in the issue.It isn't the goal of the run.
    In the issue you say Kindred open up a hellhole(for the lack of a better term), and Mj was told to face her Sins.
    W/ Mephisto involved and all the OMD teases, it's pretty clear that's what's going on.Also his last line, he clearly says this isn't the thing that we're here for.

    You're not the only one who thinks Sins past was the goal here, may I ask why?
    Saying it's just one panel is eliding over a lot - much of the issue is a Kindred-narrated retcon/flashback that hinges on the Stacy Twins. They're the bodies, they're the way to tie MJ into the plot, they're the reason Chameleon and (to a lesser extent) Mysterio need to be highlighted in the run, they're the evidence this is a long-running plan by some form of Harry.
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    Saying it's just one panel is eliding over a lot - much of the issue is a Kindred-narrated retcon/flashback that hinges on the Stacy Twins. They're the bodies, they're the way to tie MJ into the plot, they're the reason Chameleon and (to a lesser extent) Mysterio need to be highlighted in the run, they're the evidence this is a long-running plan by some form of Harry.
    But that's not the retcon people are talking about.Twins could be bodies for Kindred either way, biological children or clones, retcon not necessary.The big deal is that Norman and Gwen never had an affair, which wasn't even a page at best.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    But that's not the retcon people are talking about.Twins could be bodies for Kindred either way, biological children or clones, retcon not necessary.The big deal is that Norman and Gwen never had an affair, which wasn't even a page at best.
    The whole point of using the twins at all was to retcon the story. The bodies could have been extra Harry clones (like the BND one) since the cloning element was already necessary to explain BND Harry. It was an extra complication to use the twins. MJ's avenue into the story could have been any previous interaction with Harry, but it was instead her fake memories of Gwen that have nothing to do with Harry. Another complication. Harry's body could have been replaced with a clone in transit to the morgue to fake out Norman, but instead they used the Mysterio memory whammy (also used on MJ) to help support the master plan that involves the twins AND Harry's ability to change memories of people to undo other stories. The twins' place in the story complicates the Norman/Harry/Peter story EXCEPT it undoes Sins Past.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    The whole point of using the twins at all was to retcon the story. The bodies could have been extra Harry clones (like the BND one) since the cloning element was already necessary to explain BND Harry. It was an extra complication to use the twins. MJ's avenue into the story could have been any previous interaction with Harry, but it was instead her fake memories of Gwen that have nothing to do with Harry. Another complication. Harry's body could have been replaced with a clone in transit to the morgue to fake out Norman, but instead they used the Mysterio memory whammy (also used on MJ) to help support the master plan that involves the twins AND Harry's ability to change memories of people to undo other stories. The twins' place in the story complicates the Norman/Harry/Peter story EXCEPT it undoes Sins Past.
    Getting rid of Sins Past is a good thing ( the same applied to Shed). The question still remains what happens to OMD? Right now I have Spencer as a C. OMD goes a B. OMD remains a D.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Question (and I know we all have different ideas of who Peter is to some extent): do you think Peter was characterized well during Slottís run?
    From what I remember, I liked his characterization. I enjoyed seeing Peter have the smarts to make new tech, run a company, and fight higher-class villains like the Zodiac. I think his "no one ever dies" attitude is perfect for Spider-Man even if it doesn't make much sense realistically. As long as he has a sense of guilt, responsibility, a strong moral code, and makes quips that seems like Peter Parker to me.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Question (and I know we all have different ideas of who Peter is to some extent): do you think Peter was characterized well during Slott’s run?
    I think Slott as a writer tends to be erratic, and that his characterization of not just Peter, but everyone in the supporting cast and rogues, is wild and all over the place.

    It's not that he can't write the characters well, he can. Individual issues and scenes, some stories (Spider-Island) you can locate across his run that you can accept, yeah it's the character, but alongside that you have inconsistency and wild leaps that just don't feel right. There's little sense of a "character arc" or character continuity.

    It's the difference between being a good writer on TV doing a couple of quality episodes under a showrunner who calls the shots, and then being the showrunner yourself. Slott's better at the former than the latter.

    With Nick Spencer in all his issues he's written, good and bad, I've felt that the characters from his first issue in ASM is the same as the ones in the most recent 73rd issue.

    But with Slott, I don't accept that the Peter Parker of "No One Dies" is the same guy as "Spider-Island" as the same guy in "Worldwide", "Power Play", and then "Red Goblin".

    [That's quite aside from me accepting that this is the same guy as Pre-OMD Spider-Man, or from AF#15, which I'm sorry, even under Spencer I don't].

    That applies also to the supporting cast, like Mary Jane in Spider-Island isn't the same character in Superior and then afterwards. In the case of Doctor Octopus, there's not much explanation given for how the mass-murdering madman of "Ends of the Earth" is somehow worthy of a redemption arc in the rest of the run. That really doesn't make sense. Slott is one of the weakest writers of Aunt May and Jameson especially. Aunt May is either some battle-axe or some bigot (as to Anna Maria for her cooking better somehow), and Jameson is always shown in his most extreme colors, barring Spider-Island (though I suspect the latter by accident).

    Slott often says that he prizes the Lee-Romita era most and the Stan Lee dialogue but it's like he took the bizarre fluctuations and changes of Gwen Stacy's character in the L-R era and made that his model and saw that as features and not bugs (it was that poor writing that ultimately led to her death after all).
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  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I think Slott as a writer tends to be erratic, and that his characterization of not just Peter, but everyone in the supporting cast and rogues, is wild and all over the place.

    *snip*
    I would mostly agree with this. I think it's a solid analysis on the whole.

    I loved Big Time through Spider-Island, one of my favorite periods of Spider-Man ever. Also Superior. But most of the rest of Slott's run left me cold.

    I feel like Slott liked to Flanderize his characters. Everyone was entirely defined by their best and/or worst traits with little nuance or in-between. I definitely think Spencer has a better grasp of depth and shades of gray in his characterization. His Peter can be wholly selfish at times, but is never doing so without an understandable reason (call to mind the pre-Hunted scene where Rhino is captured because Pete is frantically trying to rescue Aunt May). His Black Cat is similarly complex in a way Slott never managed.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I think Slott as a writer tends to be erratic, and that his characterization of not just Peter, but everyone in the supporting cast and rogues, is wild and all over the place.

    It's not that he can't write the characters well, he can. Individual issues and scenes, some stories (Spider-Island) you can locate across his run that you can accept, yeah it's the character, but alongside that you have inconsistency and wild leaps that just don't feel right. There's little sense of a "character arc" or character continuity.

    It's the difference between being a good writer on TV doing a couple of quality episodes under a showrunner who calls the shots, and then being the showrunner yourself. Slott's better at the former than the latter.

    With Nick Spencer in all his issues he's written, good and bad, I've felt that the characters from his first issue in ASM is the same as the ones in the most recent 73rd issue.

    But with Slott, I don't accept that the Peter Parker of "No One Dies" is the same guy as "Spider-Island" as the same guy in "Worldwide", "Power Play", and then "Red Goblin".

    [That's quite aside from me accepting that this is the same guy as Pre-OMD Spider-Man, or from AF#15, which I'm sorry, even under Spencer I don't].

    That applies also to the supporting cast, like Mary Jane in Spider-Island isn't the same character in Superior and then afterwards. In the case of Doctor Octopus, there's not much explanation given for how the mass-murdering madman of "Ends of the Earth" is somehow worthy of a redemption arc in the rest of the run. That really doesn't make sense. Slott is one of the weakest writers of Aunt May and Jameson especially. Aunt May is either some battle-axe or some bigot (as to Anna Maria for her cooking better somehow), and Jameson is always shown in his most extreme colors, barring Spider-Island (though I suspect the latter by accident).

    Slott often says that he prizes the Lee-Romita era most and the Stan Lee dialogue but it's like he took the bizarre fluctuations and changes of Gwen Stacy's character in the L-R era and made that his model and saw that as features and not bugs (it was that poor writing that ultimately led to her death after all).
    How were those depictions of Peter and MJ different?

  14. #194
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    Little question, do we know what will do Nick Spencer after this run ?

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioman-san View Post
    Little question, do we know what will do Nick Spencer after this run ?
    He is moving over to Substack.

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