Knowing it’s ending, how would you rate Spencer’s run?

[Huntsman Spider]

i am glad that kindred finally made you all realize the truth, that ditko/lee is this character's only good run

Funny you bring that up, because there are people who would argue that Marvel acting like Ditko/Lee (or Lee/Ditko) was the best (or as you put it, "only good") Spider-Man run is the root of all the problems the character of Spider-Man/Peter Parker has faced over the years, chiefly that Marvel won't let him genuinely grow as a hero and a character and even misunderstands on a fundamental level what made the initial Lee/Ditko run work in the first place.

[Lukmendes]

i am glad that kindred finally made you all realize the truth, that ditko/lee is this character's only good run

Sure thing, once all super-hero comic books stop selling enough to keep existing, and Spidey is the last one to go (As it happened with 2099, Adventures and Ultimate), they should make a final story and have a twist like that one from clone saga, that Peter isn't the real one, but this time it'd reveal that everything about Spider-Man, him, his supporting characters villains and whatnot, everything after ASM#38 was fake, and then have that as the very last issue .

Funny you bring that up, because there are people who would argue that Marvel acting like Ditko/Lee (or Lee/Ditko) was the best (or as you put it, "only good") Spider-Man run is the root of all the problems the character of Spider-Man/Peter Parker has faced over the years, chiefly that Marvel won't let him genuinely grow as a hero and a character and even misunderstands on a fundamental level what made the initial Lee/Ditko run work in the first place.

To be fair, if that's what's happening it's just Marvel being stupid, and it's no different from super-heroes becoming gritty because of Watchmen or Kingdom Come, if a dumbass misunderstands what made either of those stories work, you can't blame the original story itself for that.

And hey, wouldn't be the first time toxic nostalgia fucks over Spidey, or comic books in general.

At least they don't go for Ditko's style of supporting characters, 'cause aside from JJ and to a certain extent, Flash, I really don't like their scenes.

[Huntsman Spider]

Sure thing, once all super-hero comic books stop selling enough to keep existing, and Spidey is the last one to go (As it happened with 2099, Adventures and Ultimate), they should make a final story and have a twist like that one from clone saga, that Peter isn't the real one, but this time it'd reveal that everything about Spider-Man, him, his supporting characters villains and whatnot, everything after ASM#38 was fake, and then have that as the very last issue .



To be fair, if that's what's happening it's just Marvel being stupid, and it's no different from super-heroes becoming gritty because of Watchmen or Kingdom Come, if a dumbass misunderstands what made either of those stories work, you can't blame the original story itself for that.

And hey, wouldn't be the first time toxic nostalgia fucks over Spidey, or comic books in general.

At least they don't go for Ditko's style of supporting characters, 'cause aside from JJ and to a certain extent, Flash, I really don't like their scenes.

Uh-huh, though I would mention that Kingdom Come was more of a rebuke to the whole "grim and gritty" era of superhero comics kicked off by Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns that portrayed those kinds of anti-heroes as plain violence addicts who turned on each other for their fix after dealing with the "actual" villains, even if the more classic heroes were also portrayed as flawed and lost in their own right. That said, I agree with you on the toxic nostalgia front, and it is true you can't blame a story for being misinterpreted by people who lack critical reading/thinking skills and glom onto the most superficial aspects of that story without bothering to analyze it more deeply.

[Lukmendes]

Uh-huh, though I would mention that Kingdom Come was more of a rebuke to the whole "grim and gritty" era of superhero comics kicked off by Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns that portrayed those kinds of anti-heroes as plain violence addicts who turned on each other for their fix after dealing with the "actual" villains, even if the more classic heroes were also portrayed as flawed and lost in their own right.

Kingdom Come specifically led to Wonder Woman's character being screwed over, since she's shown as a warrior who keeps using a sword there, something that was implemented with Diana eventually to the point New 52 had her looking bloodthirsty, completely missing the point that Kingdom Come Diana became misguided with her more violent approach.

But yeah, it's nice that KC decided to go for "both sides have a point" approach, 'cause what the silver age heroes were doing was fucked up, even if a different kind.

That said, I agree with you on the toxic nostalgia front, and it is true you can't blame a story for being misinterpreted by people who lack critical reading/thinking skills and glom onto the most superficial aspects of that story without bothering to analyze it more deeply.

Yeah, and honestly, it's fine if random people misinterpret it, it happens, problem is if a writer tries to do their own version of that story, or something based on it, and misses everything that made the story work and just uses some aspects from it wrongly, and stuff based on Watchmen focus on the dark parts of the story while missing key stuff like the character development, and that the ******* characters are treated as such instead of being glorified... It's like if a chef learned that manure is used to fertilize plants, then comes to the logical conclusion that putting manure on the food they're cooking is gonna improve it.

[JustLuke]

It's been days and I still have no idea how the hell any of this works and what the A.I./Harry's/Kindred's/Sarah & Gabriel's/whoever the ****'s ultimate goal was, what Peter's sin was if not OMD, and pretty much everything else. Genuinely confused as to what I just read, but hey it's confirmed Mayday > Satan so whatever, I'll take what I can get.

[Lukmendes]

It's been days and I still have no idea how the hell any of this works and what the A.I./Harry's/Kindred's/Sarah & Gabriel's/whoever the ****'s ultimate goal was, what Peter's sin was if not OMD, and pretty much everything else. Genuinely confused as to what I just read, but hey it's confirmed Mayday > Satan so whatever, I'll take what I can get.

The ultimate goal is to basically prevent Peter from both being the hero who takes down Mephisto, and to prevent Mayday from being the one who does so, since it's possible it could be either one, Mephisto is using everyone for this.

It's pretty whatever as an explanation, and the whole "Mephisto made a deal with Norman to get Harry's soul to use him to **** over Spider-Man when he shows up", is, very specific and makes either Spidey or Mayday look way too important, and I know at times it's said he'll be the greatest hero but, Spidey alone being better than Satan is kinda pushing it lol.

[Spiderfan001]

The ultimate goal is to basically prevent Peter from both being the hero who takes down Mephisto, and to prevent Mayday from being the one who does so, since it's possible it could be either one, Mephisto is using everyone for this.

It's pretty whatever as an explanation, and the whole "Mephisto made a deal with Norman to get Harry's soul to use him to **** over Spider-Man when he shows up", is, very specific and makes either Spidey or Mayday look way too important, and I know at times it's said he'll be the greatest hero but, Spidey alone being better than Satan is kinda pushing it lol.

It's a willpower thing, strength of spirit.Also the Web of life and destiny ig.
He beat Zarathos, the living spirit of Vengance which surprised both the Beyonder and Mephisto.
He also restored reality like 2+ times, in the nexus of all realities and via nightmare IIRC.

[Rigel]

At this point I really think they need to write some issue like The Osborn Journal to address the loose ends of the whole run, and also explaining better the solution they gave to the Kindred storyline

[Huntsman Spider]

Kingdom Come specifically led to Wonder Woman's character being screwed over, since she's shown as a warrior who keeps using a sword there, something that was implemented with Diana eventually to the point New 52 had her looking bloodthirsty, completely missing the point that Kingdom Come Diana became misguided with her more violent approach.

But yeah, it's nice that KC decided to go for "both sides have a point" approach, 'cause what the silver age heroes were doing was fucked up, even if a different kind.



Yeah, and honestly, it's fine if random people misinterpret it, it happens, problem is if a writer tries to do their own version of that story, or something based on it, and misses everything that made the story work and just uses some aspects from it wrongly, and stuff based on Watchmen focus on the dark parts of the story while missing key stuff like the character development, and that the ******* characters are treated as such instead of being glorified... It's like if a chef learned that manure is used to fertilize plants, then comes to the logical conclusion that putting manure on the food they're cooking is gonna improve it.

Pretty good way of putting it, and yeah, the classic heroes in Kingdom Come did get pretty authoritarian trying to set the world back on the "right" path. I can definitely see your point on Wonder Woman, though, and the New 52 was even admitted by Geoff Johns in retrospect as DC taking all the wrong lessons from works like Watchmen, as you indicated.

The ultimate goal is to basically prevent Peter from both being the hero who takes down Mephisto, and to prevent Mayday from being the one who does so, since it's possible it could be either one, Mephisto is using everyone for this.

It's pretty whatever as an explanation, and the whole "Mephisto made a deal with Norman to get Harry's soul to use him to **** over Spider-Man when he shows up", is, very specific and makes either Spidey or Mayday look way too important, and I know at times it's said he'll be the greatest hero but, Spidey alone being better than Satan is kinda pushing it lol.

Fair enough, though Spider-Man or his offspring being great enough to beat the Devil does explain why Mephisto tries so hard to break the former and prevent the latter from existing. I do appreciate it, on a certain level, for Marvel finally admitting that Peter and Mary Jane are endgame, married or not.

It's a willpower thing, strength of spirit.Also the Web of life and destiny ig.
He beat Zarathos, the living spirit of Vengance which surprised both the Beyonder and Mephisto.
He also restored reality like 2+ times, in the nexus of all realities and via nightmare IIRC.

Good points there, especially on the willpower/strength of spirit front, which would be why Mephisto has tried so hard to demoralize and break down Spider-Man, whether through the Osborns or even in Spider-Man/Deadpool with Itsy Bitsy.

At this point I really think they need to write some issue like The Osborn Journal to address the loose ends of the whole run, and also explaining better the solution they gave to the Kindred storyline

The Kindred Journal(s), maybe?

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

The Kindred Journal(s), maybe?

Oh god.
Me being me, I read this and can only imagine Gabriel's diary being

"Dear Journal,
Sarah confused her Kindred jacket with mine AGAIN! I swear when we come out as two separate entities she's gonna be wearing mine and I hers."

[Huntsman Spider]

Oh god.
Me being me, I read this and can only imagine Gabriel's diary being

"Dear Journal,
Sarah confused her Kindred jacket with mine AGAIN! I swear when we come out as two separate entities she's gonna be wearing mine and I hers."

Ha, that would be pretty funny.

[FFJamie94]

So, hopefully copies of ASM 73/74 should be arriving in the next few days.
Anyway, here’s my sum up of the run as a whole.

The first 49 issues are great, fun and get things back on track.
You take out the Kindred arc, and you have a great 49 issue run which ends with Norman losing his sins. While there was the rough 2099 patch, it’s also brought us those first 13 issues which are what Amazing Spider-man should be. Hunted was the first big arc for this run, and I think it holds up well with the rest of this era. However, it doesn’t stand alone, you still need the context of 30 years worth of comics to get full enjoyment from it, but it’s not needed. You can see this story as just a Kraven event.
The 2099 arc was the first real dud of the run. It feels highly out of place, being a time story in a run where that heavy emphasis on sci-fi was never explored. If anything, it feels like a left over from Slott’s run, and the payoff wasn’t that great. This was when the art dipped (and I’ve seen this artist’s other stuff and it’s actually really good), so for me, it feels like this was a rushed arc to speed things up.
Sin’s rising was the equivalent to Hunted, and I’ll probably say this is the last great Spencer arc. This one feels like it can be read as a stand alone story and if anyone says “Hey, remember that great Sins Rising story where Norman became good? Wasn’t that great?!” in 10 years, then i wouldn’t be surprised. If any arc stands the test of time, it’s this one.

Things started to fall apart with Last Remains, which actually started pretty good. I think this was a good arc with some great art and some decent writing. However, Spencer had his chance to effectively undo One More Day here. Or at least deal with it head on. If anything, this arc would be remembered for being wasted potential.
From there, the run went from conclusive arc to conclusive arc, wrapping up everything that Spencer started.
Out of all of these, King’s Ransom is the best and the only one which I can say is a good story. The Chameleon Conspiracy came way too soon after King’s Ransom, and essentially answered nothing. It also serves as a sequel to the 2099 arc and we all know how much we love that arc.

That brings us to Sinister War. I think while I enjoyed this arc, it was more for the weird direction the book took. I was never bored during this run, that’s something at least. But this arc is really just nothing. I have a theory which states that Sinister War was going to be it’s own separate arc, not dealing with Kindred. But Spencer had to finish up his run and so quickly shat out Sinister War and gave us the conclusion of the Kindred arc.
Sinister War isn’t a story, it’s a textbook. It’s Spencer telling us how messed up the Spider-man continuity is. The problem is that this really needed to be a story.
I’ll argue that you could cut the Sinister War arc out and focus on Spider-man facing off against Kindred for the last time, building up the big epic showdown.
But instead we have a fight in the graveyard which is resolved by a deus ex machina and so the comic moves on.

And now we get to the opinions on the reveal. It’s clear that this wasn’t Spencer’s choice and this at least confirms that One More Day won’t be addressed head on. However, for as much as Marvel is at fault, I do feel like Spencer should have to share some of the blame.

Instead of telling us stories, Spencer wanted to clean up shop, give us a finale to the BND/BT/Superior/Worldwide saga, which is funny as back to basics felt more like a reboot, but really it was a thesis. We’re stripping Peter back, and we’re doing this by going on the journey of stripping it all back.
Really, this is that grand finale, this is what it’s all been building towards, and I feel like we’ve missed out on some amazing Spider-man stories because of it.

I know Spencer is a good writer, he did Superior foes and Secret Empire, and I actually really like those. Spencer did some great Spider-man arcs, I know he has it in him.

Yes Marvel are also at fault, editorial should have stepped in earlier so it doesn’t hurt the story, but that’s what this is, it’s hurting the name.

For that, I’ll have to rank it a 6/10. Maybe once I’ve actually read those two final issues I’ll be able to have a better understanding for a final score. Either way, it can only go up or down 1. I know how this story ends, but I want to see it for myself.

If it addressed OMD, it would have been a certain 7, maybe an 8.
But I can only give this a 6, and that’s mostly for those early issues.

Say what you want about Slott, at least he gave us a story.

[exile001]

I think a 6 is fair, personally I'd (web)swing between 6 and 7.

The thing is, for all its faults, I did enjoy most of Spencer's run. It had a lot of great moments and there were few issues where I was bored or regretted the purchase. It may have often lacked depth but overall it was fun and ultimately I can take uncomplicated fun much easier than something frustrating, boring, unlikable, regressive and many other harsh words I'd use to describe Brand New Day or the 00's soft-reboot.

That said, thinking back now with no prompts there 's actually a lot of stuff I know I'm not remembering which isn't a great sign.

I didn't care about Kindred much for most of the run. I never believed they were going to undo OMD (nor do I care. I just want Pete and MJ together and would be happier if it were just never brought up again), I hate characters talking to the audience which is basically all Kindred did until Last Remains, and I'm not a fan of mystical/religious stuff in Spider-man. That said, the idea of Kindred being pre-OMD Harry was interesting, I love time-loops/alt-timeline stuff, and Spencer (and the echo chamber here) did a great job of convincing me the end of the run may actually be something huge. It kinda did deliver on this conceptually for the fans who can't get over Sins Past by completely changing it with a load of clone/hypnotism/A.I. nonsense that I thoroughly enjoyed.

I really think recency bias is a problem, as well as the expectations the fan base built up for themselves in the finale (yes, Spencer intentionally lead us in that direction but it was still). It wasn't a great ending (actually, it was basically the same story as Chameleon Conspiracy only longer) but it wasn't a terrible ending (see OMD for a bad ending) and I'm interested to re-read the whole run in trades in a few years to see how it stands up without the weight of expectation.

I'd definitely say Hunted and Sin’s Rising were legitimate high points and worth revisiting.

I just wish there were something of consequence or substance coming out of it. And Norman should have died (it's not like he'll remain un-Goblined for long).

[Chubistian]

He lost me with Last Remains. I will continue the run, but with a latinamerican edition wich is way cheaper than the other options, though it's going through Absolute Carnage right now, so it's a couple of years behind. Hunted was the best storyline, I read it again and I enjoyed it just as much as the first time. I think Sins Rising is also a very good story, and Last Remains started strong, but the ending was unsatisfying. The tie-ins were pretty poor. 2099 was bad overall and the short stories were usually fun. I think it's an average run, with few things that I will care about in a few years from now.

[Spiderfan001]

So, hopefully copies of ASM 73/74 should be arriving in the next few days.
Anyway, here’s my sum up of the run as a whole.

The first 49 issues are great, fun and get things back on track.
You take out the Kindred arc, and you have a great 49 issue run which ends with Norman losing his sins. While there was the rough 2099 patch, it’s also brought us those first 13 issues which are what Amazing Spider-man should be. Hunted was the first big arc for this run, and I think it holds up well with the rest of this era. However, it doesn’t stand alone, you still need the context of 30 years worth of comics to get full enjoyment from it, but it’s not needed. You can see this story as just a Kraven event.
The 2099 arc was the first real dud of the run. It feels highly out of place, being a time story in a run where that heavy emphasis on sci-fi was never explored. If anything, it feels like a left over from Slott’s run, and the payoff wasn’t that great. This was when the art dipped (and I’ve seen this artist’s other stuff and it’s actually really good), so for me, it feels like this was a rushed arc to speed things up.
Sin’s rising was the equivalent to Hunted, and I’ll probably say this is the last great Spencer arc. This one feels like it can be read as a stand alone story and if anyone says “Hey, remember that great Sins Rising story where Norman became good? Wasn’t that great?!” in 10 years, then i wouldn’t be surprised. If any arc stands the test of time, it’s this one.

Things started to fall apart with Last Remains, which actually started pretty good. I think this was a good arc with some great art and some decent writing. However, Spencer had his chance to effectively undo One More Day here. Or at least deal with it head on. If anything, this arc would be remembered for being wasted potential.
From there, the run went from conclusive arc to conclusive arc, wrapping up everything that Spencer started.
Out of all of these, King’s Ransom is the best and the only one which I can say is a good story. The Chameleon Conspiracy came way too soon after King’s Ransom, and essentially answered nothing. It also serves as a sequel to the 2099 arc and we all know how much we love that arc.

That brings us to Sinister War. I think while I enjoyed this arc, it was more for the weird direction the book took. I was never bored during this run, that’s something at least. But this arc is really just nothing. I have a theory which states that Sinister War was going to be it’s own separate arc, not dealing with Kindred. But Spencer had to finish up his run and so quickly shat out Sinister War and gave us the conclusion of the Kindred arc.
Sinister War isn’t a story, it’s a textbook. It’s Spencer telling us how messed up the Spider-man continuity is. The problem is that this really needed to be a story.
I’ll argue that you could cut the Sinister War arc out and focus on Spider-man facing off against Kindred for the last time, building up the big epic showdown.
But instead we have a fight in the graveyard which is resolved by a deus ex machina and so the comic moves on.

And now we get to the opinions on the reveal. It’s clear that this wasn’t Spencer’s choice and this at least confirms that One More Day won’t be addressed head on. However, for as much as Marvel is at fault, I do feel like Spencer should have to share some of the blame.

Instead of telling us stories, Spencer wanted to clean up shop, give us a finale to the BND/BT/Superior/Worldwide saga, which is funny as back to basics felt more like a reboot, but really it was a thesis. We’re stripping Peter back, and we’re doing this by going on the journey of stripping it all back.
Really, this is that grand finale, this is what it’s all been building towards, and I feel like we’ve missed out on some amazing Spider-man stories because of it.

I know Spencer is a good writer, he did Superior foes and Secret Empire, and I actually really like those. Spencer did some great Spider-man arcs, I know he has it in him.

Yes Marvel are also at fault, editorial should have stepped in earlier so it doesn’t hurt the story, but that’s what this is, it’s hurting the name.

For that, I’ll have to rank it a 6/10. Maybe once I’ve actually read those two final issues I’ll be able to have a better understanding for a final score. Either way, it can only go up or down 1. I know how this story ends, but I want to see it for myself.

If it addressed OMD, it would have been a certain 7, maybe an 8.
But I can only give this a 6, and that’s mostly for those early issues.

Say what you want about Slott, at least he gave us a story.

I think a 6 is fair, personally I'd (web)swing between 6 and 7.

The thing is, for all its faults, I did enjoy most of Spencer's run. It had a lot of great moments and there were few issues where I was bored or regretted the purchase. It may have often lacked depth but overall it was fun and ultimately I can take uncomplicated fun much easier than something frustrating, boring, unlikable, regressive and many other harsh words I'd use to describe Brand New Day or the 00's soft-reboot.

That said, thinking back now with no prompts there 's actually a lot of stuff I know I'm not remembering which isn't a great sign.

I didn't care about Kindred much for most of the run. I never believed they were going to undo OMD (nor do I care. I just want Pete and MJ together and would be happier if it were just never brought up again), I hate characters talking to the audience which is basically all Kindred did until Last Remains, and I'm not a fan of mystical/religious stuff in Spider-man. That said, the idea of Kindred being pre-OMD Harry was interesting, I love time-loops/alt-timeline stuff, and Spencer (and the echo chamber here) did a great job of convincing me the end of the run may actually be something huge. Which it kinda did deliver on by completely changing Sins Past with a load of clone/A.I. nonsense that I thoroughly enjoyed.

I really think recency bias is a problem, as well as the expectations the fan base built up for themselves in the finale (yes, Spencer intentionally lead us in that direction but it was still). It wasn't a great ending (actually, it was basically the same story as Chameleon Conspiracy only longer) but it wasn't a terrible ending (see OMD for a bad ending) and I'm interested to re-read the whole run in trades in a few years to see how it stands up without the weight of expectation.

I'd definitely say Hunted and Sin’s Rising were legitimate high points and worth revisiting.

I just wish there were something of consequence or substance coming out of it. And Norman should have died (it's not like he'll remain un-Goblined for long).

Amazing posts.

If I may, Slott had great ideas but the problem was his execution.And the fact that he actively ruined characters from Peter to MJ to Black Cat, etc. means his run hurt Spider-man more than helped.Spencer had near perfect characterization and his stories were decent and he undid a lot of the mess Slott and co made.

I feel the damage Slott did knocks 2-3 point of his runs rating for me, it was very harmful.While I'll add 1-2 points for Spencer fixing messes, which was needed unless we could get a reboot.