Knowing it’s ending, how would you rate Spencer’s run?

[Lukmendes]

It's a willpower thing, strength of spirit.Also the Web of life and destiny ig.
He beat Zarathos, the living spirit of Vengance which surprised both the Beyonder and Mephisto.
He also restored reality like 2+ times, in the nexus of all realities and via nightmare IIRC.

Him beating Zarathos is as bullshit as that time he beat Firelord lol.

Pretty good way of putting it, and yeah, the classic heroes in Kingdom Come did get pretty authoritarian trying to set the world back on the "right" path. I can definitely see your point on Wonder Woman, though, and the New 52 was even admitted by Geoff Johns in retrospect as DC taking all the wrong lessons from works like Watchmen, as you indicated.

And then DC doing the same bullshit post Rebirth shows they didn't learn their lesson.

I think DC is apparently avoiding that again, and with DiDio gone, there is a better chance, but who knows, maybe the dark nonsense will return again, and this dumb cycle will continue.

Fair enough, though Spider-Man or his offspring being great enough to beat the Devil does explain why Mephisto tries so hard to break the former and prevent the latter from existing. I do appreciate it, on a certain level, for Marvel finally admitting that Peter and Mary Jane are endgame, married or not.

Yeah I see what the point is, but I prefer for some characters to not do something that is too big for 'em.

I guess it's kinda funny that Mephisto being what keeps Peter and MJ separated is in a way saying that editorial is the devil, so that's funny at least.

Good points there, especially on the willpower/strength of spirit front, which would be why Mephisto has tried so hard to demoralize and break down Spider-Man, whether through the Osborns or even in Spider-Man/Deadpool with Itsy Bitsy.

The weird thing is that, back in OMD and this Spidey/Deadpool comic, Mephisto basically says that he's doing it 'cause he likes breaking a hero's spirit, basically making it sound like he's bored and chose to be a pain in Spidey's ass for shits and giggles, this "Mephisto is afraid of Peter/Mayday", just makes you wonder why he's not more direct about getting rid of them... But oh well lol.

The Kindred Journal(s), maybe?

This nonsense is convoluted enough for something like that to help clear up lol.

[Spiderfan001]

Him beating Zarathos is as bullshit as that time he beat Firelord lol.

Tell me you haven't read the fight without telling me you haven't read the fight

Just joking lol.On a serious note, have you read the fight?Because there's context here.If you haven't read it I can provide context and scans for you.

[Lukmendes]

Tell me you haven't read the fight without telling me you haven't read the fight

Just joking lol.On a serious note, have you read the fight?Because there's context here.If you haven't read it I can provide context and scans for you.

I have read the fight, I forget when it happened (Pretty sure it was during Secret Wars II, since Beyonder was there), there was a bet for Kingpin to be killed, Zarathos kept tormenting Spidey with his failures, he raised up even after all of that, beats him in one punch, Zarathos disappears for some reason, then Spidey saves Fisk.

While it showing his willpower is nice and all, Zarathos just, vanishes after all of that, it's pretty silly lol.

I'm pretty sure at the time he's what powered up the Ghost Riders too, so he's in no way a weak demon to go down that fast.

[Huntsman Spider]

Him beating Zarathos is as bullshit as that time he beat Firelord lol.



And then DC doing the same bullshit post Rebirth shows they didn't learn their lesson.

I think DC is apparently avoiding that again, and with DiDio gone, there is a better chance, but who knows, maybe the dark nonsense will return again, and this dumb cycle will continue.



Yeah I see what the point is, but I prefer for some characters to not do something that is too big for 'em.

I guess it's kinda funny that Mephisto being what keeps Peter and MJ separated is in a way saying that editorial is the devil, so that's funny at least.



The weird thing is that, back in OMD and this Spidey/Deadpool comic, Mephisto basically says that he's doing it 'cause he likes breaking a hero's spirit, basically making it sound like he's bored and chose to be a pain in Spidey's ass for shits and giggles, this "Mephisto is afraid of Peter/Mayday", just makes you wonder why he's not more direct about getting rid of them... But oh well lol.



This nonsense is convoluted enough for something like that to help clear up lol.

Yeah, fair points there.

[David Walton]

Well except for some of the later Lee-Romita issues where she becomes an even bigger jerk than in the Ditko years, but the problem is that the narrative never acknowledges any of that.



The Green Goblin Reveal issue in ASM#39-40 is a classic and all but I can't help but think it was a little premature because the weird thing is that when Peter finds out Goblin is unmasked, that's when he meets Norman for the first time. So there's not much of any connection between the characters for that reveal to land. Lee-Romita set up a bond and tentative friendship between Harry and Peter in the same issue but it's still way too little to get that Peter would all of a sudden care so much for Harry that he'd let a supervillain crime lord who tried to kill him numerous times worm his way back into civilian life. And then after the reveal, Norman becomes a lame dad and supporting character for most of the L-R run barring the Drug Trilogy where he relapsed and it's almost as if Stan Lee wanted to get the Green Goblin mystery out of his way rather than continue the intricate cat-and-mouse thing you had in the Ditko years.

Ditko's Norman had no split personality and he never conceived any of his villains as mentally unbalanced. So the melodramatic and sentimental touches introduced by Lee-Romita kind of neutered him a bit. Since Norman's resurrection he has somehow become a lot more like Ditko's take. One reason why Weisman's The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon was so great that it really went with Ditko's original Norman/Goblin. All coolly calculating and sociopathic charm without any of the sentimental split personality stuff from later.

At the same time I also liked how Dafoe's Norman Osborn did the split-personality thing and it worked there too. I certainly don't think the Romita Goblin stuff needs to be retconned or anything. It was great execution and classic comics and more or less following Ditko's ideas but differing a bit.

I like the split personality aspect and it doesn't really take anything away from cold, calculating Norman since that seems to be the strongest manifestation of his various personalities.

The split personality gives Peter this unwinnable dilemma, the kind of thing that most heroes wouldn't give a second thought to but he's going to feel guilty about the outcome either way.

I really love how Zdarsky's LIFE STORY gave us that heartbreaking moment after Peter turns Norman in and he doesn't understand why he's being jailed...and then Zdarsky turned that on its head in the following years and showed Norman to be just as evil as ever.

Also, Norman falling apart psychologically at key moments and being driven by volatile emotions separates him from Doc Ock, who should always be the coolest customer in Spidey's rogues gallery.

[David Walton]

Him beating Zarathos is as bullshit as that time he beat Firelord lol.

Firelord isn't the Silver Surfer. He might be the lamest of all Galactus' heralds in terms of strength and cunning.

As far as Zarathos goes, he was presented as more of a spiritual obstacle to Spider-Man than a physical threat. The terms of the bet didn't allow him to win through sheer physical force, he had to make Spider-Man voluntarily relinquish his responsibility by not saving Kingpin. Exhaustion could factor in, but not being, you know, obliterated by a fireball.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I like the split personality aspect and it doesn't really take anything away from cold, calculating Norman since that seems to be the strongest manifestation of his various personalities.

The split personality gives Peter this unwinnable dilemma, the kind of thing that most heroes wouldn't give a second thought to but he's going to feel guilty about the outcome either way.

I really love how Zdarsky's LIFE STORY gave us that heartbreaking moment after Peter turns Norman in and he doesn't understand why he's being jailed...and then Zdarsky turned that on its head in the following years and showed Norman to be just as evil as ever.

Also, Norman falling apart psychologically at key moments and being driven by volatile emotions separates him from Doc Ock, who should always be the coolest customer in Spidey's rogues gallery.

Those are great points. Not sure I agree about the divide between him and Ock though.

[Spiderfan001]

I have read the fight, I forget when it happened (Pretty sure it was during Secret Wars II, since Beyonder was there), there was a bet for Kingpin to be killed, Zarathos kept tormenting Spidey with his failures, he raised up even after all of that, beats him in one punch, Zarathos disappears for some reason, then Spidey saves Fisk.

While it showing his willpower is nice and all, Zarathos just, vanishes after all of that, it's pretty silly lol.

I'm pretty sure at the time he's what powered up the Ghost Riders too, so he's in no way a weak demon to go down that fast.

It was a bet, Spider-man didn't give in and thus he went away.It's a neat feat IMO

Firelord isn't the Silver Surfer. He might be the lamest of all Galactus' heralds in terms of strength and cunning.

As far as Zarathos goes, he was presented as more of a spiritual obstacle to Spider-Man than a physical threat. The terms of the bet didn't allow him to win through sheer physical force, he had to make Spider-Man voluntarily relinquish his responsibility by not saving Kingpin. Exhaustion could factor in, but not being, you know, obliterated by a fireball.

Yeah, it's more of spiritual and will power than physical.

[Lukmendes]

Firelord isn't the Silver Surfer. He might be the lamest of all Galactus' heralds in terms of strength and cunning.

His power is still far, far above than the likes of Spidey and he shouldn't have lost just because Spidey punched him really hard, really often lol.

As far as Zarathos goes, he was presented as more of a spiritual obstacle to Spider-Man than a physical threat. The terms of the bet didn't allow him to win through sheer physical force, he had to make Spider-Man voluntarily relinquish his responsibility by not saving Kingpin. Exhaustion could factor in, but not being, you know, obliterated by a fireball.

Yeah I get that, it's just lame how he suddenly disappeared after being punched once, the bet ends depending on whether or not Fisk gets killed, so Spidey saving Fisk would've been a better moment for Zarathos to disappear, not a punch lol.

[Jekyll]

Extremely glad it’s over. It’s more than likely that I will never revisit this run again.

[David Walton]

Those are great points. Not sure I agree about the divide between him and Ock though.

Osborn is always a bit of a wild card. He can only hold it together for so long. Eventually his emotions get the best of him.

That's why I really liked the twist with his "sins" being removed. It's an interesting question, what would Osborn be if he didn't have the split personality issues (and potentially brain damage from the Goblin serum explosion). I hope something worthwhile comes of it.

[HypnoHustler]

Extremely glad it’s over. It’s more than likely that I will never revisit this run again.

I might re-read ‘Hunted’ and some of the other early issues (pre-25), but that’s about it. As time passes, I feel worse about this run, not better.