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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Yeah fandoms can turn one against a character. Tim is a great example. Robin fandom is pretty toxic but Tim fans are on another level of toxicity, entitlement and pettiness.

    On this very site when Duke was first introduced they created a mock Appreciation thread for Duke just to bash him. That's some creative hate and dedication.

    It's just comics.

    The hate against Damian continues till today and on AO3 poor Dick Grayson for his crime of making Damian Robin the majority of his SFW non TT fanfic are stories where he suffers for, get's punished, regret's, is hated by other heroes for kicking Tim out, gets yelled at by Batman when he returns for making Damian Robin and kicking Tim out, comes crawling back to Tim, made to apologise for making Damian Robin and kicking Tim out [a thing that never happened in the comics]... etc You get the general theme.

    My Gosh it's comics and that was over 10 years ago.

    Jeez.

    Anyway don't like Tim Drake and 70% of my dislike comes from experiences with/behaviour of his fandom.

    30% find him bland and his origin story is just the worst. Tim as Robin is very toxic and super damaging.

    Turned a mantle for giving a young lost orphan a hopeful purpose into a teen in charge of batman's mental wellbeing and regulator of his actions.

    The kid shouldn't be responsible for an adult's actions/mental health. That puts a ton of emotional stress and strain on a kid.

    Bruce can't control yourself then move into a hospice.
    Last edited by dietrich; 06-21-2021 at 01:00 PM.

  2. #32
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    Off the top of my head...

    Jon Kent
    Harley Quinn
    Lois Lane
    Jazmine Sullivan - Pick Up Your Feelings - https://youtu.be/6jOA3h4zSTc

  3. #33
    BIIIIIIIRDMAN!! Falcon16's Avatar
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    Scorch (Scott Fischer)

    Only cared for him because I thought there was going to be endo with his death. Only seeing his outside with Atomica describing the shit we didn't get to see and then just showing her exiting (from the outside) after the guro really broke my heart.

    Then I realized he was a child.

    And then that's when I realized it wasn't intended to be endo, it was intended to be guro, and it was meant to SHOCK the readers, not... you know. If I had known he was a child, I would've not read it.

    NEVER use my fetish for something like that. I know some of you may have different opinions, but to me, I was expecting the insides to be shown, and even the concept of using it as a kill method scares me. And using it on a child is even worse.

    Needless to say, I don't care about the New 52 Doom Patrol no more.
    Last edited by Falcon16; 06-21-2021 at 01:35 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Kara Zor-El.

    She never stuck out to me. But the TV show really turned me against her. That was when I realized that she'd never be anything more than Superman in a skirt. She had an incredibly similar job, the exact same 'disguise,' and even much of the same supporting cast. Despite having been created in 1959, there was apparently not enough material in 2015 for there to be anything about her that wasn't stolen from Superman. She's just another Kryptonian whose presence crowds out other, better and more unique characters.

  5. #35
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    I am enjoying this thread!

  6. #36
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    I liked it when the Batman family was Bruce, Nightwing (Dick), Alfred, Jim Gordon, Robin (Tim Drake), and Oracle (Barbara).

    Anyone else is unnecessary IMO.

    Also no need for Jon Kent
    Last edited by caj; 06-21-2021 at 02:26 PM.

  7. #37
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    Damien Wayne. Hal Jordan.

    I'm sure I can come up with more.
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I never understood this. If Static suddenly got a bunch of vitriolic fans would you start disliking the character for it?
    Here is the thing with some of this hatred and fan behavior.

    When you look at a character and their body of work-you have to wonder WHY...

    Lets take Duke Thomas-excluding Batman & Signal, We Are Robin and The Outsiders-I actually COUNTED his panel appearances in Batman & Detective Comics.
    I don't have enough material to make ONE comic book.

    So what is there to HATE? Because the hate for Duke was WORST then the hate Ms Marvel got. There were threads deleted that were calling for a boycott of Batman as long as Duke was in them and it was in various forums not just Batman-Marvel and X-Men had them.

    "I have read Batman for 30 years-I am DONE with that book with that person in them." Duke was that person and this was before the book or any preview came out. Duke was MIA in that book by 2018 and the hate still kept on going.


    Where the hell is this for the Dick Grayson fans? Can you provide a specific example of a minority they don't like?
    I think the issue is the resentment of POC showing up and NOW all the sudden we get the threads of too many Batfolks or issues with a POC holding a title.

    Jace Fox shows up and now it's BRUCE WAYNE is BATMAN and the ONLY Batman-ignoring Dick, Jim, Daddy Wayne, Jean Paul and others who called themselves Batman.

    Where are all the too many Batfolk threads NOW? Because Tynion is pumping them out like they were Pokemon.

    So it's not so much Dick or Tim fans doing it but a general issue of hate for certain folks showing up.

    There are lot of people, who can't stand entire franchises, like Star Wars, Marvel/DC, Star Trek, Attack on Titan, etc, just because of their fans.
    After the hatred that almost got violent over Finn-yall can have Star Wars.

    Wow -- well, there's nothing insulting there. I actually thought about avoiding this thread because I was thinking nothing good can come from it. Suspicions confirmed.
    Just because Hal Jordan or ANY character has 1000+ stories does mean everyone is going to fall in love with them.

    . That one isn't even remotely one sided, especially as we've had fans of other GLs bash Hal in his own thread.
    How many times have we seen Hal fans attack OTHER lanterns? Mainly John Stewart.

    I get wanting to read about Hal and Hal alone-guess what EVERY OTHER lantern fan feels the same way. Yet they (mainly JOHN fans) get belittled and not called real fans for not reading Hal lead books.


    Since 2006-2020 Hal has had a lead in a book. There are 14 years worth of books with Hal. If folks find Hal boring after having 14 years worth of books-I will say this......

    He got 14 years of books for a REASON. At least there are 14 years worth of books to read on Hal as a lead to get folks to change their mind. At least Hal fans can recommend Sinestro Wars or GL Rebirth or Morrison's GL book.


    So when folks see hate for Duke or Vixen or John- we wonder why because there is NOT enough material out there in trade or digital to hate them.

    And if they are in CRAPPY books-guess what there is NOTHING out there to counter it.

    What am I suppose to sell Duke to people with beyond Batman & Signal and We Are Robin. I dropped Outsiders because Duke had no business in that book and it looks like no one is interested in him. Parent gased by Joker and a dad that might be a villain. Instead we got TYnion flooding Gotham with new folks.


    If someone has only read that abortion New 52 Static Shock-I have NOTHING to counter it because while I own EVERY Milestone book-those books are hard to find or so overpriced at some places that I can't recommend anything.

    In Wallace's case-that is on DC who added fuel to the flames. Offered a racist stereotype and then did as LITTLE as they could to fix it. It took Priest in another book to salvage Wallace.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I think the issue is the resentment of POC showing up and NOW all the sudden we get the threads of too many Batfolks or issues with a POC holding a title.

    Jace Fox shows up and now it's BRUCE WAYNE is BATMAN and the ONLY Batman-ignoring Dick, Jim, Daddy Wayne, Jean Paul and others who called themselves Batman.
    There is always backlash from Bruce fans when it comes to replacements. This isn't a new thing. There definitely was backlash against Jean Paul back when Knightfall was published, as was the intended reaction from DC.

    Very few people consider all the Batman stand ins as serious contenders for being on equal footing with Bruce. He is for all intents and purposes the only real one.


    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Just because Hal Jordan or ANY character has 1000+ stories does mean everyone is going to fall in love with them.
    Who is asking them to? Hal fans just don't like seeing him be bashed, that doesn't mean we are demanding you fall in love with him.


    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    How many times have we seen Hal fans attack OTHER lanterns? Mainly John Stewart.
    From my experience, it's the John fans that attack Hal fans. John fans came into the Hal thread and bashed him. I don't go into the John thread because I have no reason to. I can easily believe the same thing happened in reverse though, but that just means it's a two way street between the fanbases. Hal's fanbase isn't any more toxic than others. When we have online review articles saying that Morrison's run is great but shouldn't be about the "worst" GL and that the current John writer publically Tweeted that Hal sucked, why is there surprise we get our hackles up?

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I get wanting to read about Hal and Hal alone-guess what EVERY OTHER lantern fan feels the same way. Yet they (mainly JOHN fans) get belittled and not called real fans for not reading Hal lead books.
    Nobody's saying they don't. You're kind of illustrating my point for me. All fanbases react the same way, but Hal fans tend to get labeled a certain way for being defensive. You're doing it right now, and you've been vocal about it in the Hal thread in the past.

    As a Hal fan, I'm satisfied with his recent output and honesty don't mind if he takes a back seat for a bit. He had a respectful send off from Morrison and John is long overdue to lead a series, so I think Hal fans can relax a little bit and let someone else have some turns. But it'd be easier to be satisfied without the other GL fanbases saying he sucks near constantly, and then acting like we can't say anything back. Honestly, what other response are you expecting?

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Since 2006-2020 Hal has had a lead in a book. There are 14 years worth of books with Hal. If folks find Hal boring after having 14 years worth of books-I will say this......

    He got 14 years of books for a REASON. At least there are 14 years worth of books to read on Hal as a lead to get folks to change their mind. At least Hal fans can recommend Sinestro Wars or GL Rebirth or Morrison's GL book
    Again, Hal fans should be satisfied with that, but nobody should be surprised when we get a little nervous that DC threw him under the bus before and can't be trusted not to do it again. Especially when the current writer is tweeting that Parallax is the only time he was interesting.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Dr. Skeleton's Avatar
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    Booster Gold, Blue Demon, Challengers Of The Unknown, Warlord, Duke Thomas, Hawk & Dove, the Metal Men.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Wow -- well, there's nothing insulting there. I actually thought about avoiding this thread because I was thinking nothing good can come from it. Suspicions confirmed.
    I was thinking the exact same thing, only negativity can come from this thread....but temptation made me look, and I was kind of shocked at what the person you quoted said.

    I like Static quite a bit because he's a cool creative original character (This coming from a guy who doesn't like teenage superheroes in general)

    But to turn around and say Hal Jordan & Wally West (2 of DC's most historically popular characters are disinteresting?) smacks of resentment. When Static has held his own title for over 20 years like the latter two heroes than maybe he can make that argument with some validity.

    As a Hal fan of course I want him to be the main GL, particularly on the JLA, but I don't hate other Green Lanterns, I'm actually particularly fond of John Stewart, I collected Mosaic back in the day, and I am reading GL right now, but I can't help but feel as a Hal fan you have a target on your back, because fans of other Green Lanterns want him out the way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Speaking as a black guy, these fandoms aren't even close to the most racist I've encountered. I'm not even sure what minority character Dick Grayson fans are supposedly intimidated by. And if you're talking about the mess with Wallace West, even Wally's black fans hated his guts at first and for damn good reason. He's one of my go to examples of how not to do a race lift or include diversity.
    I'm not sure where this poster is coming from but...

    for me personally, the backlash against having your favourite character replaced has nothing to do with race, it has to do with the fact that your favourite character will no longer be prominently featured, or worse, DC has killed them off.

    When Hal fans went on a rampage over Kyle Rayner taking over as Green Lantern, Kyle was white. They were simply protesting the fact that DC had turned their favourite character into a mass murderer to be replaced by a newbie, and all it did (And in my opinion all legacy replacement characters do to often) is create a split toxic DC fanbase.

    Legacy characters can be successful but they have to be chosen with care to make sure your not upsetting fans of the existing character.

    I don't think there is enough diversity in DC comics, and I think part of that reason is because DC has chosen to be creatively lazy, by not creating new interesting minority heroes that would grow in popularity over time, something they should have started 30 years ago. My opinion anyways.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    if his character were not nearly compelling enough to warrant the fervor, probably. the difference being Static is an interesting character that I enjoy reading and reading about, where as these characters are generally nothing particularly interesting narratively or culturally and they have very loud and toxic agitators among their fandom. in fact, it's interesting that you brought up Static, given the nature Milestone's inception, because one of the top things that pushed me away from these characters in particular was noticing the way said agitators within their fandoms regularly engaged in willfully ignorant, gaslight-y, thinly veiled racist gatekeeping toward any character of color (and their fans) that was perceived as a threat or seen as an affront to their particular fav. *shrugs* yeah, some fans can take the fun out of these characters; it's not a hard concept to grasp. there are worst and weaker justifications for not caring for characters ("there are too many [insert brand] characters" for example).
    Huh. You know, I was not expecting to be generalized into a group of racists for liking Dick Grayson and Wally West. You caught me off guard on that one.

    I do think it's a disservice to say Wally's not interesting narratively. He has a rather completely unique situation in comics that no other character really compares to besides...kind of Jack Knight (but even then Jack only got the one series and Wally did it first). His status as the first protege turned main hero is incredibly unique, if nothing else. And I know you have a penchant for a lot of legacy characters so I was imagining there was some parallel there between us(I'm super big on legacy, it's why I'm the world's biggest Iris West II fan). But I suppose not.

    I'll admit Wally doesn't have a lot of cultural impact purely for himself as an individual outside of the Speed Force and all the Flash Power Level memes...BUT his run as The Flash does include the first interracial marriage (Wally and Linda) in DC (and I believe in cape comics period) and the first openly gay hero coming out in his comics with Hartley as Pied Piper (Excluding Extrano, who wasn't really a hero when he debuted and more of a giant hateful stereotype against gay people). The Flash doesn't get a lot of credit for the way it pushed cultural acceptability in Wally's era mostly because it was done so incredibly well no one complained about it.

    Amusingly, according to Waid, most of the hate just stuck to complaining about bringing Barry back.

    I will concede, though, that the Wally fanbase has been downright vitriolic for awhile but typically for being unabashedly lied to and hated by DC's editorial more than anything else. I suppose the negativity is offputting but it's the only thing they'll ever listen to, sadly. Just seems a shame for that to ruin a character for you rather than, well, the character. The only way I can spin it is people got so upset after about 10 years of mistreatment because he was such a good, enjoyable, unique character in a good, enjoyable, and unique run.

    I'd like to hopefully point out that now that the character's been treated with just a minor amount of respect for...less than a few months that the praise and positivity is overflowing. Heck, comics like Speed Metal and DC universe Rebirth that bucked the trend of shitting on him were filled with glowing, positive fan reactions. Maybe Wally fans are too myopic rather than one thing, lol.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-21-2021 at 05:34 PM.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Wally is also married to a woman of color, and his fanbase definitely wanted her and their kids back along with him. His romance with Artemis in YJ (who is biracial) is also popular.

    So the racism argument against all four of those characters doesn't hold, but seems especially baffling for Wally in particular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    for me personally, the backlash against having your favourite character replaced has nothing to do with race, it has to do with the fact that your favourite character will no longer be prominently featured, or worse, DC has killed them off.

    When Hal fans went on a rampage over Kyle Rayner taking over as Green Lantern, Kyle was white. They were simply protesting the fact that DC had turned their favourite character into a mass murderer to be replaced by a newbie, and all it did (And in my opinion all legacy replacement characters do to often) is create a split toxic DC fanbase.
    While I think there are totally some assholes who hate on characters who aren't straight cis white men, I think most of the backlash against new replacement characters is simply a result of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    Legacy characters can be successful but they have to be chosen with care to make sure your not upsetting fans of the existing character.

    I don't think there is enough diversity in DC comics, and I think part of that reason is because DC has chosen to be creatively lazy, by not creating new interesting minority heroes that would grow in popularity over time, something they should have started 30 years ago. My opinion anyways.
    I think it's a combo of DC and Marvel being creatively lazy, most creators not wanting to use their best ideas for characters outside of their own creator owned stuff, and the increasingly niche Wednesday Warriors being set in their ways and not always wanting to try new things. Plenty of blame to go around, TBH.

    I feel that if comics were still a mainstream form of entertainment that was readily available in more locations than just specialty shops, completely new and diverse characters would have a much better chance of catching on. Even the big names would be "healthier" than they are now. It kind of sucks that they have an entire fictional universe to play with, and everything is consolidated down to the same 10 or so corners.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 06-21-2021 at 05:19 PM.

  14. #44
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    Wally's run also brought in the first black speedster with Jenni Ognats AKA XS. Which I didn't mention but bears including because it was pretty obviously an idea in the writers' heads between WML and Waid to have a much more diverse cast. Linda wasn't even originally introduced as a love interest, just a supporting character who evolved into one under Waid. XS doesn't get as much love or exposure as Wallace due to how the cards just fell and she was deleted from history in the same continuity that Wallace was introduced.

    Also the show gave her name to someone else which further spoils that well. Poor Jenni
    Last edited by Dred; 06-21-2021 at 05:35 PM.

  15. #45
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    Harley Quinn. Joker. Darkseid. Tanya Spears. Nu Damage. Val Zod. Nu Jay. Nu Alan. SG much of the time. That plot device of a little girl who murdered just about everyone she saw in that nu 52 thing, working with Deathstroke. Don't know her name, or what happened to her in story, but she was the worst. And it seemed like the writers loved her.

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