X-Men Monday #112, after the Arrako incident

[loke13]

Bolivar and Larry Trask created those Sentinels, not a government agency. Also, in the 75+ years of such crimes being recognized, weapons makers have never been charged with war crimes except for use of slave labor or being high enough up in the command chain with awareness and support of the actual crime being committed. No one has ever been tried for genocide or Crimes Against Humanity for building weapons without knowledge of the crimes themselves. Also, Bolivar and Larry were dead by the time of the Genoshan massacre. So, no, there is no one else to hold accountable except Casandra Nova, and she was dealt with harshly.

It's a known fact that human goverments funded Sentinel research and other anti mutants organizations.

[nx01a]

I presume that one of those two women kissing is Domina.

The *gasp* Neo?!
No. Please. No.

Also... Doesn't look like her to me.

[Brian B]

It's a known fact that human goverments funded Sentinel research and other anti mutants organizations.

Really? We know the Wild Sentinels are Trasks’. Based on the context, I argue it had to be Bolivar’s. Nowhere — NOWHERE — in X-Men #14 through 17, and #57 through 59 does it indicate the government funded the development of Sentinels.

Also, you would need knowledge of Casandra’s crimes by the governments to hold them accountable.

There’s no indication in X-Men #14 through 17, or #57 through 59 that even the Trasks knew what Casandra Nova would do. They didn’t know. The Trasks are dead when Casandra does what she does. They didn’t support her. They’re not guilty.

Same with any government support, which there is no government support shown.

Casandra did it. She’s held accountable. There’s no one else to blame.

[Daedra]

It's a known fact that human goverments funded Sentinel research and other anti mutants organizations.

Exactly, Trask was the engineer and nova deployed the megasentinels but the founds and materials required to build those machines go beyond the ability and the means available to a single man and his genocidal dream.

[Daedra]

Really? We know the Wild Sentinels are Trasks’. Based on the context, I argue it had to be Bolivar’s. Nowhere — NOWHERE — in X-Men #14 through 17, and #57 through 59 does it indicate the government funded the development of Sentinels.

Also, you would need knowledge of Casandra’s crimes by the governments to hold them accountable.

There’s no indication in X-Men #14 through 17, or #57 through 59 that even the Trasks knew what Casandra Nova would do. They didn’t know. The Trasks are dead when Casandra does what she does. They didn’t support her. They’re not guilty.

Same with any government support, which there is no government support shown.

Casandra did it. She’s held accountable. There’s no one else to blame.

Cassandra just unleashed the sentinels on Genosha

[Kingdom X]

I was a bit confused on it, too.

Reading X-Force #10 multiple times over, I think Beast’s and X-Force’s actions resulted in killing all the Terra Verdeans. I think they were basically dead by the time X-Force arrived. I think this especially so if you look at the pictures of Wolverine in the temple at the end of the battle, surrounded by what appear to be dead people. In the text, it sort of makes it sound like X-Force saves the day, but that’s not what is shown. Also, the text maybe just referencing the saving of humanity in general from telefloronics and X-Force from the monsters Beast created, not saving the Terra Verdeans who sure look dead.

At the Gala, it’s clear Beast is using modified telefloronics to control the president of Terra Verde. And we know — we KNOW — he was dead. That tells me, it’s the plants re-animating or imitating this dead man. That’s also what convinced me the Terra Verdeans are all dead, or at least the zombified, plant equivalent. Emma’s reaction to this news at the Gala also shows this is what happened. Emma understands the gravity of what Beast and X-Force have done.

Make no mistake, either, this is Krakoan government policy, whether Emma likes it or not. X-Force is more than just some spies like the NSA or CIA. They’re also blackops soldiers. Of course, the CIA runs blackops too, but that just means it is government policy too for the US. X-Force can claim to be “off the books” all they want, but they report direct to Xavier and the Quiet Council. Beast, Jean, Quint, Wolverine, Domino, and Black Tom are some of the highest up and most trusted members of the Krakoan government and military. They are Krakoa’s military. The Krakoan government committed genocide, or at least slaughter and Crimes Against Humanity.

There were some on this board like Ring10, who I usually disagree with, pointing things like this out for weeks or months. I have to admit, he was right. I was wrong. The X-Men have broken very bad, indeed.

I think more so than the “X-Men” have broken bad it’s that Charles has broken bad, which is obviously a huge problem because he’s in charge. I’m assuming the Council doesn’t approve all of X-Force’s actions because otherwise Emma would have known what was going on.

I make that distinction because I think X-Men #21 did a great job juxtaposing Charles and Magneto’s more nefarious intentions, with the reveal of the new team showing that many mutants do still believe in the dream and don’t have any ulterior motives and just want to be safe and proud.

The real question (and what I’m most looking forward to seeing) is: What is the way forward? Will the hubris of some doom everyone to going back to being hunted, hated, and feared or will the X-Men find a middle path?

[Brian B]

I think more so than the “X-Men” have broken bad it’s that Charles has broken bad, which is obviously a huge problem because he’s in charge. I’m assuming the Council doesn’t approve all of X-Force’s actions because otherwise Emma would have known what was going on.

I make that distinction because I think X-Men #21 did a great job juxtaposing Charles and Magneto’s more nefarious intentions, with the reveal of the new team showing that many mutants do still believe in the dream and don’t have any ulterior motives and just want to be safe and proud.

The real question (and what I’m most looking forward to seeing) is: What is the way forward? Will the hubris of some doom everyone to going back to being hunted, hated, and feared or will the X-Men find a middle path?

The problem is X-Force is the Krakoan military. You can’t separate out some of our favorite former heroes from the baddies anymore. Jean Grey actively orchestrated the cover up of Crimes Against Humanity.

[Brian B]

Cassandra just unleashed the sentinels on Genosha

When people are tried for war crimes, the people who commit the crimes are tried and hopefully convicted. The guy who built the gun is not tried, unless he participated in the planning of the crime.

In this case, Genosha, no nation state was involved in the planning or execution. Also, the guys who built the gun, the Trasks, are dead.

Yes, Casandra did it. She’s the guilty one. There’s no other government involved.

On the other hand, X-Force basically is Krakoa’s military. What went down in Terra Verde is Krakoan government policy.

If Xavier, Magneto, Beast and Jean were dead, there maybe an out for the Krakoan government. Otherwise, there are people who can and ought to be held accountable for what they did in Terra Verde. The Terra Verdean massacre, unintentional or not, has a return address on Krakoa.

With Genosha, Casandra is gone. The Trasks are dead. There’s no nation to blame.

[Daedra]

When people are tried for war crimes, the people who commit the crimes are tried and hopefully convicted. The guy who built the gun is not tried, unless he participated in the planning of the crime.

In this case, Genosha, no nation state was involved in the planning or execution. Also, the guys who built the gun, the Trasks, are dead.

Yes, Casandra did it. She’s the guilty one. There’s no other government involved.

On the other hand, X-Force basically is Krakoa’s military. What went down in Terra Verde is Krakoan government policy.

If Xavier, Magneto, Beast and Jean were dead, there maybe an out for the Krakoan government. Otherwise, there are people who can and ought to be held accountable for what they did in Terra Verde. The Terra Verdean massacre, unintentional or not, has a return address on Krakoa.

With Genosha, Casandra is gone. The Trasks are dead. There’s no nation to blame.

Someone built a facility full of gigantic mega sentinels designed e programmed to kill mutants but you say all the blame falls sorely on cassandra nova and trask, I’m sorry but I disagree, responsibility runs far deeper than that.

[Brian B]

Someone built a facility full of gigantic mega sentinels designed e programmed to kill mutants but you say all the blame falls sorely on cassandra nova and trask, I’m sorry but I disagree, responsibility runs far deeper than that.

Casandra says the Trasks built it, who are, you know, dead. Maybe they can try them and convict them even though they’re dead.

Besides all of that, having a genocide perpetrated on your people doesn’t give a nation a free pass to commit genocide against some other country that had nothing to do with it 10 years later.

[Daedra]

Casandra says the Trasks built it, who are, you know, dead. Maybe they can try them and convict them even though they’re dead.

Besides all of that, having a genocide perpetrated on your people doesn’t give a nation a free pass to commit genocide against some other country that had nothing to do with it 10 years later.

It was build with U.S. tax dollars trough a shadow program, maybe you shoukd get your facts straight



As per your second point: it was never a topic in my comments so I’m not the one who should answer it.

[Brian B]

It was build with U.S. tax dollars trough a shadow program, maybe you shoukd get your facts straight



As per your second point: it was never a topic in my comments so I’m not the one who should answer it.

Casandra Nova is not a trustworthy witness. Read X-Men #14 to 17, and #57 to 59. The Trask Sentinels are portrayed as something the Trasks built, not the US government. Even if she’s telling the truth, which is doubtful, members of the US government were not involved in Casandra’s decision to pull the trigger.

[Daedra]

Casandra Nova is not a trustworthy witness. Read X-Men #14 to 17, and #57 to 59. The Trask Sentinels are portrayed as something the Trasks built, not the US government. Even if she’s telling the truth, which is doubtful, members of the US government were not involved in Casandra’s decision to pull the trigger.

As always you are free to go by whatever headcanon suits your views, I’ll stick to the printed material.
My opinion on how far reaching consequences should be clearly differs from yours.

[Brian B]

As always you are free to go by whatever headcanon suits your views, I’ll stick to the printed material.
My opinion on how far reaching consequences should be clearly differs from yours.

Okay then, let us say she is telling the truth. Enough with head canon.

Cite me a historical precedent in which the builder of a weapon or armament was tried for crimes against humanity in an internationally recognized court of law following a genocide, when that arms or munitions manufacturer played no part whatsoever in the decision to use the weapon.

I’m done with your opinion or mine. Find me a real-life example. I’ll be waiting.

[Daedra]

Okay then, let us say she is telling the truth. Enough with head canon.

Cite me a historical precedent in which the builder of a weapon or armament was tried for crimes against humanity in an internationally recognized court of law following a genocide, when that arms or munitions manufacturer played no part whatsoever in the decision to use the weapon.

I’m done with your opinion or mine. Find me a real-life example. I’ll be waiting.

First of all don’t order me around, second I don’t have to compare apples with oranges, until humans will start building giant killer robots for real this argument will be relegated to the fiction of comic books