How Spider-Man went from a story about one character to a “team franchise”

[Spiderfan001]

Wait, is the argument he interacts too much with Pete of that he interacts with him too little? Kind of getting whiplash here.

It depends on Miles.Is he in the 616 or 1610.
If 616 then too little for me.And mostly how they interact.They should have a relationship between mentor-teacher to big bro-little bro and Pete should teach him more stuff.
If 1610 then just for team-ups.

Also the earlier debate(with which you have confusion) was for creation of all these characters where I(and some others) said that we have way too many and they need to stop making more and cut some out and send Miles and Gwen back to their respective universes.
The current discussion is why Miles is a bad character and how he would benefit from going to the 1610 specially since its coming back.

[CosmiComic]

I'd like to see more Peter-Miles master-Padawan relationship, but I wouldn't say Miles is a bad character

[Spiderfan001]

I guess some of those are problems. Although I don't care much about secret ids at all so that's not really a problem for me. What's the problem with their stories?

Just read them.
It's a damn chore to get through.
The storylines are either random or totally bizarre.They don't make any sense.Things happen just cause.
Storylines coincide randomly.The series also doesn't really last.I got this text from the net and it has many good points but is wrong about a couple.


"Marvel is dying and Champions is amazing in that it manages to encapsulate everything about WHY it's dying. Ham-fisted political issues, uninteresting characters, shitting over pre-established concepts, and a complete lack of understand of the market it's trying to capture. The characters just aren't interesting. Kamala(in champions) is just not an interesting character to read because there's no meat to the character. Kid-Nova is similar, and both of their personalities are grating. But the biggest gripe was encapsulated in-universe by Richard Rider when he came back for no reason and spoke to the Champions. There's a big 2 page spread where he's asking about all his friends and the Champions are being snarky little bastards about everything. When he says "Captain Marvel? He's dead", Kamala responds with "SHE's not". That's the crux of why people just aren't buying issues. Because it's headlining itself with all these kids wearing the costumes of dead people whom we grew attached to, and it feels like it's mocking the reader. The Hulk isn't angry, now he's passive-aggressive. Nova is an insert for Loeb's son. Ms Marvel is warped from who we used to know her as. Cyclops is a joke.

Champions is embodying the decay of Marvel Comics. Completely disconnected from its readers and not understanding why people don't like their new faux-characters."

[Spiderfan001]

I'd like to see more Peter-Miles master-Padawan relationship, but I wouldn't say Miles is a bad character

Agreed on both accounts.
But being average doesn't nearly cut it for the amount of attention he is getting because of the massive push he is getting or to the Mask he is wearing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Years ago when I was working the day shift at the stage door at a local theater while I was in grad school, the mailman came in and noticed that I had a whole pile of graphic novels in front of me to help me pass the time. He excitedly told me about how much he liked Miles Morales and how happy his kid was that Spider-Man was also another nice black kid. While I don't know much about Miles outside of the last Spider-Man cartoon (which, again, I found surprisingly enjoyable despite my initial misgivings), that alone is worth the character's existence.

And I'm willing to bet they're not the only two African Americans comic book readers/cartoon watchers who are grateful and enjoy the character immensely.

Ah but you see those aren't true fans, you know. They don't count. So who cares about real people with real lives finding something meaningful in a comic, what matters is continuity nerds deciding who to herd in which line ignoring the reality of how comics are actually read and appreciated.

Appearance count is completely meaningless,

Because it doesn't support your argument? Appearance and frequency of it is the only objective measure of a character's appeal and ability to retain readership.

since really nothing has been done with it.

Because you ignore all the comics with him doesn't mean nothing has been done.

They've given no reason why Miles even wants or feels the need to be a superhero in 616, or why he would use a name made popular and known by someone else, and that person is still around and active.

Nobody got around to giving Wolverine an origin until more than 25 years after he first appeared. It's irrelevant.

[CosmiComic]

Just read them.
It's a damn chore to get through.
The storylines are either random or totally bizarre.They don't make any sense.Things happen just cause.
Storylines coincide randomly.The series also doesn't really last.I got this text from the net and it has many good points but is wrong about a couple.


"Marvel is dying and Champions is amazing in that it manages to encapsulate everything about WHY it's dying. Ham-fisted political issues, uninteresting characters, shitting over pre-established concepts, and a complete lack of understand of the market it's trying to capture. The characters just aren't interesting. Kamala(in champions) is just not an interesting character to read because there's no meat to the character. Kid-Nova is similar, and both of their personalities are grating. But the biggest gripe was encapsulated in-universe by Richard Rider when he came back for no reason and spoke to the Champions. There's a big 2 page spread where he's asking about all his friends and the Champions are being snarky little bastards about everything. When he says "Captain Marvel? He's dead", Kamala responds with "SHE's not". That's the crux of why people just aren't buying issues. Because it's headlining itself with all these kids wearing the costumes of dead people whom we grew attached to, and it feels like it's mocking the reader. The Hulk isn't angry, now he's passive-aggressive. Nova is an insert for Loeb's son. Ms Marvel is warped from who we used to know her as. Cyclops is a joke.

Champions is embodying the decay of Marvel Comics. Completely disconnected from its readers and not understanding why people don't like their new faux-characters."

I haven't read all of Champions yet. I'm not a huge teen comic fan anymore but I like some of the progressive ideas it's supposedly pushing. Not much into teen Cyclops though, or Cyclops as a whole

But this response seems to come off like a lot of reactionary posts condemning legacy characters

Agreed on both accounts.
But being average doesn't nearly cut it for the amount of attention he is getting because of the massive push he is getting or to the Mask he is wearing.

Then Marvel needs to put more effort into his characterization

[CosmiComic]

Ah but you see those aren't true fans, you know. They don't count. So who cares about real people with real lives finding something meaningful in a comic, what matters is continuity nerds deciding who to herd in which line ignoring the reality of how comics are actually read and appreciated.



Because it doesn't support your argument? Appearance and frequency of it is the only objective measure of a character's appeal and ability to retain readership.

I'd say that's true but not totally because if Marvel abandons a character before they have a chance to become popular, we'd never know, and Marvel has been accused of doing this with minority characters

Because you ignore all the comics with him doesn't mean nothing has been done.



Nobody got around to giving Wolverine an origin until more than 25 years after he first appeared. It's irrelevant.

yeah, it's not too late to expand on Miles

[SecretWarrior]

You can't shuttle Miles back to 1610 since what makes these characters relevant for decades is their relationships with other interesting characters--the stories are otherwise repetitive. For example, no one cares what an interaction between Miles and faux Captain America is like--they want to know what his dynamic with 616 Cap is like. From an IP farm standpoint, you also need to lay the groundwork of defined relationships for easier adaptations.

[Celgress]

It's not that I don't understand the needs for the franchise to expand and add new characters/heroes, but very rarely do they seem to gel with Peter or the franchise' roots beyond their own, isolated, stories.

My thoughts exactly. While there is nothing wrong with adding new characters I detest the idea of a "Spider-Family" of loosely connected heroes becoming central to Spider-Man's adventures. Peter is at his best when he's alone as a hero, IMO.

Edit - I would not be adverse to Peter either mentoring Miles for a time or teaming with MJ as a couple (if she gained powers again) but I'm against Spidey leading (or being part of) a (three-person or greater) team long term.

[phonogram12]

The current discussion is why Miles is a bad character...

But...he's not.

[CosmiComic]

You can't shuttle Miles back to 1610 since what makes these characters relevant for decades is their relationships with other interesting characters--the stories are otherwise repetitive. For example, no one cares what an interaction between Miles and faux Captain America is like--they want to know what his dynamic with 616 Cap is like. From an IP farm standpoint, you also need to lay the groundwork of defined relationships for easier adaptations.

Exactly

My thoughts exactly. While there is nothing wrong with adding new characters I detest the idea of a "Spider-Family" of loosely connected heroes becoming central to Spider-Man's adventures. Peter is at his best when he's alone as a hero, IMO.

Edit - I would not be adverse to Peter either mentoring Miles for a time or teaming with MJ as a couple (if she gained powers again) but I'm against Spidey leading (or being part of) a (three-person or greater) team long term.

I'd rather not see Peter do the same thing forever. I don't think he needs a huge team or anything, but being alone as a hero isn't something great in of itself.

But...he's not.

Exactly

[Spiderfan001]

But...he's not.

Except we just made so many points as to why he is.
Specially when compared to Spider-man.

[Spiderfan001]

You can't shuttle Miles back to 1610 since what makes these characters relevant for decades is their relationships with other interesting characters--the stories are otherwise repetitive. For example, no one cares what an interaction between Miles and faux Captain America is like--they want to know what his dynamic with 616 Cap is like. From an IP farm standpoint, you also need to lay the groundwork of defined relationships for easier adaptations.

Again you don't seem to understand that we are saying send him back to the 1610 if and when the universe is brought back in business, with all the characters.
Of course there is no point in sending him to an islolated verse

[Spiderfan001]

Ah but you see those aren't true fans, you know. They don't count. So who cares about real people with real lives finding something meaningful in a comic, what matters is continuity nerds deciding who to herd in which line ignoring the reality of how comics are actually read and appreciated.



Because it doesn't support your argument? Appearance and frequency of it is the only objective measure of a character's appeal and ability to retain readership.



Because you ignore all the comics with him doesn't mean nothing has been done.



Nobody got around to giving Wolverine an origin until more than 25 years after he first appeared. It's irrelevant.

This is a discussion about Miles as a character.Not about his skin colour which if it was would be a positive.

I have read most his comics and he hasn't had many changes.Hell his mother has been brought back.Recently we did get another baby but no character growth has occured.

Still,Wolverine was and still is a great selling character.Also miles had an origin that has been retconned as oppossed to not being told.

[Spiderfan001]

I haven't read all of Champions yet. I'm not a huge teen comic fan anymore but I like some of the progressive ideas it's supposedly pushing. Not much into teen Cyclops though, or Cyclops as a whole

But this response seems to come off like a lot of reactionary posts condemning legacy characters



Then Marvel needs to put more effort into his characterization

I agree.As I said I don't agree with all that is being said.

Also you can't blame that a character needs better characterization when he is bad.The better characterization will make him better but you can't just say he's good as he is at the same time dude.Also he gets most of his character from the movie.Comic miles was never really even decent before and is still average.