LGBTQ+ mutants appreciation

[ChronoRogue]

Not every side character needs to be flehed out if that isn't their story. What do you know about elliot Stabler wife despite the years he was on Law and order and they were married. She was a wife, a mother, loyal and was killed. Did Law and Order lose anything because we didn't have a season dedicated to miss elliot stabler. I just don't get the media double standards. And i say media as in format not media media.

If you want me to care about a character, you need to flesh them out. Are you saying it's good that Kyle is such a shallow character that if they divorced next week, I'd barely care? I don't think that should be the case and I'd appreciate it they explored the marriage further as well as individualized Kyle.

[jwatson]

If you want me to care about a character, you need to flesh them out. Are you saying it's good that Kyle is such a shallow character that if they divorced next week, I'd barely care? I don't think that should be the case and I'd appreciate it they explored the marriage further as well as individualized Kyle.

I'm saying i don't understand why a person would be so obsessed with who Northstar is married to but not feel the same way about wanting to see who Elliot Stabler was married to after 20 years on law and order. If you felt the same cool, if not i'm saying i don't get the big deal, not that there isn't one, someone else may be able to explain it but as it stands i don't see the big deal. It's a bigger deal to me that Iceman has no story as a gay mutant.

Or rather why would i read a book about mutants and expect a purely human perspective. That is like me watching a show about cops but only seeing the view point of the spouses or criminals. Like why?

[ChronoRogue]

I'm saying i don't understand why a person would be so obsessed with who Northstar is married to but not feel the same way about wanting to see who Elliot Stabler was married to after 20 years on law and order. If you felt the same cool, if not i'm saying i don't get the big deal, not that there isn't one, someone else may be able to explain it but as it stands i don't see the big deal. It's a bigger deal to me that Iceman has no story as a gay mutant.

Part of it probably has to do with the gnere.

Law and Order is part serialized mystery and crime/mental illness character studies, it's focus really isn't on romantic drama (unless it's a specific case) and even the main character themselves are relatively shallow because they are usually vehicles to further the mystery. You do get character development but it's stretched over a much longer period due to the focus of the story isn't on the main cast.

The X-Men is about super heroics and political themes but the soap opera aspects (romance, drama) is also very heavy and core to the brand (ie the famous love square between jean/scott/wolverine/emma, rogue/gambit, etc...). Developing and getting to know the characters significant others is part of the fun of the genre. Even for human characters, like Madelyne, Trish Tibly, etc... and anyone else who dated an X-Men characters was given a bit of development.

To say nothing of someone who married into the X-Men and is now living on an island with them.

[jwatson]

Part of it probably has to do with the medium. Law and Order is part serialized mystery and crime/mental illness character studies, it's focus isn't romantic drama. The X-Men is about superheroics, political themes but the soap opera aspects (romance, drama) is also very heavy and core to the brand (ie the famous love square between jean/scott/wolverine/emma, rogue/gambit, etc...). Developing and getting to know the characters significant others is part of the fun of the genre. Even for human characters, like Madelyne, Trish Tibly, etc... and anyone else who dated an X-Men characters was given a bit of development.

To say nothing of someone who married into the X-Men and is now living on an island with them.

But those are subplots and beats not stories.

[ChronoRogue]

But those are subplots and beats not stories.

And? Do you know how many people got into X-Men because of a fan favorite pairing? I would know, there is a ton of Romy shippers who could attest to this. Romance and interpersonal drama can and is a huge draw to this franchise.

Heck this entire thread is about LGBT characters, if romance/dating/sexuality/etc wasn't important to certain people this thread wouldn't exist.

[Wiccan615]

Most queer people want to see queer relationships be given actual panel time, depth and development because we grow up without them. Not really rocket science. Law & Order might be one thing but shipping discourse is a hallmark of most, if not all serialized tv show fandoms.

I also don’t watch Law & Order but isn’t Elliot straight? The lack of insight on his partner means nothing to straight people then, cuz that’s a form of representation that they can generalize due to it being the default. Queer fans don’t get that so a lack of development feels more like a slight, so it’s a pretty massive false equivalence.

[Confuzzled]

Loa was the last mutant revealed as queer. Who do you think will be next?

All of the NXM are on the spectrum. Can't wait for Wither to reveal he was crushing on BOTH Wallflower and Elixir back at the time, hence his dramatics hitting hyperdrive.

[jwatson]

Most queer people want to see queer relationships be given actual panel time, depth and development because we grow up without them. Not really rocket science. Law & Order might be one thing but shipping discourse is a hallmark of most, if not all serialized tv show fandoms.

I also don’t watch Law & Order but isn’t Elliot straight? The lack of insight on his partner means nothing to straight people then, cuz that’s a form of representation that they can generalize due to it being the default. Queer fans don’t get that so a lack of development feels more like a slight, so it’s a pretty massive false equivalence.

Okay this makes sense. It would be nice to see Kyle and Northstar presented as a couple more. I completely agree with this what i was responding to was posts implying the lack of kyle was some how intentional as though in this era he has some story to be told. IMO he really doesn't so i didn't get the concept or expectation of how one should "flesh him out" but more time with his spouse makes sense which in my opinion we have gotten quite a bit of. and to me it felt very organic during the hellfire gala and xfactor where as a human spouse kyle didn't have a huge part but was alwayhs present and recognized even given krakoan laws, to be Northstar spouse. So other than banners i'm not sure how much more clear it could have been made or where the line is between being accepted and wanting to be seen.

[Wiccan615]

Okay this makes sense. It would be nice to see Kyle and Northstar presented as a couple more. I completely agree with this what i was responding to was posts implying the lack of kyle was some how intentional as though in this era he has some story to be told. IMO he really doesn't so i didn't get the concept or expectation of how one should "flesh him out" but more time with his spouse makes sense which in my opinion we have gotten quite a bit of. and to me it felt very organic during the hellfire gala and xfactor where as a human spouse kyle didn't have a huge part but was alwayhs present and recognized even given krakoan laws, to be Northstar spouse. So other than banners i'm not sure how much more clear it could have been made or where the line is between being accepted and wanting to be seen.

Fair! I think it really just depends on what you *want* from them. And that’s going to vary, because not all queer fans are a monolith. Some of us just want more than what we have been given, and more of a reason to be invested. It’s very blatant the way they have been treated, even with the marriage happening the way it did, was because Marvel wanted to pat themselves on the back, and not because they considered an actual long-term plan for either character. It’s a double standard that straight marriages in comics often don’t have to deal with and I would prefer one of the only gay ships we got to have more on panel depth than “we are married and love each other very much, I’m a human and he’s a mutant.” I think Marjorie Liu explored them the best because we actually got to see more of why that balance matters to both of them, but the context around them was still lacking direction, and the build up needed more space to actually galvanize Kyle as an individual character.

Going back to Thinkfast, part of the reason why they’re appealing is not just cuz of their chemistry in YA, but because Tommy actually has an interesting vantage point in the larger Magnus family lore and cuz David is a character we already know and loved from New X-Men. Therefore, there’s investment in their dynamic, I would like more of that, personally, and it’s still not something we, as queer fans get enough of.

[ChronoRogue]

I think we've gotten a fair bit of Kyle in this era. My personal complaint is actually the opposite, I wish Leah had individualized him more separate from Northstar to get a better grasp of him as a character instead of just Jean-Paul's SO. It's not that "there are stories to be told" specifically, just getting him to be more dimensional.

This is also a problem I have with certain cis straight relationships, like Rogue and Gambit during the 90s, where the couple becomes one person/character (it happens IRL but it's also frustrating to me there too lmao) and the writers fail to individualize them.

[Anduinel]

I think we've gotten a fair bit of Kyle in this era. My personal complaint is actually the opposite, I wish Leah had individualized him more separate from Northstar to get a better grasp of him as a character instead of just Jean-Paul's SO. It's not that "there are stories to be told" specifically, just getting him to be more dimensional.

Thing is - and one of the things that makes X-Factor's cancellation infuriating - is that there was a specific story to be told that Kyle was in a unique position to deliver and Williams had the intent to tell it. And then we lost two issues to cross-over nonsense, and got shorted the customary 12 so that X-Factor could have a big (painfully rushed) finale issue to close the Hellfire Gala. Not to mention Shatterstar and Rictor's reunion getting cut short and split across two issues, not getting to see Tommy comfort David or even David get full spotlight in his own story, etc. Ugh. Yeah, gonna be bitter about that one for a while. Williams might have been overly ambitious when it came to trying to squeeze stuff in, but even with all the dangling plot threads, I prefer it to tease that Marauders turned out to be.

[KylunFan]

All of the NXM are on the spectrum. Can't wait for Wither to reveal he was crushing on BOTH Wallflower and Elixir back at the time, hence his dramatics hitting hyperdrive.

They are trying hard to catch up with the Young Avengers cast.

I'd happily believe that the vast majority of the New X-Men are in some way LGBTQ+ outside of the painfully heteronormative Julian Keller.

[Wiccan615]

For as many possible plot threads Williams may have intended with many of the aforementioned queer characters/ships, it’s sad we saw barely any of them come to a proper conclusion or fruition, but managed to get the rehabilitation of Daken with his romance with Aurora established in the same time frame, alongside the notion that Eye Boy is quite capable and powerful with the exploration of his powers. Given the panel time Kyle got, I never would have guessed there were larger plans for him, beyond implying wanting kids with JP, which I don’t think many queer fans (esp queer male fans) would have guessed or wanted, but it’s cool if there was, it’s too bad the panel time wasn’t invested early on but was for other characters. I appreciate that Ayala was able to have a whole character arc with Karma, whilst brilliantly balancing the rest of the NMs cast and establish a new black lesbian character with a comparable amount of issues for both their respective series.

I also don’t quite grasp why X-factor was expected to last more than two trades, if PAD’s last volume of X-Factor barely could, idk how it was thought that a book with the same title featuring C list characters and a much less known writer would, especially with the way the comic economy was and with the sales of issue 3 being in the danger zone already.

[Dante Milton]

For as many possible plot threads Williams may have intended with many of the aforementioned queer characters/ships, it’s sad we saw barely any of them come to a proper conclusion or fruition, but managed to get the rehabilitation of Daken with his romance with Aurora established in the same time frame, alongside the notion that Eye Boy is quite capable and powerful with the exploration of his powers. Given the panel time Kyle got, I never would have guessed there were larger plans for him, beyond implying wanting kids with JP, which I don’t think many queer fans (esp queer male fans) would have guessed or wanted, but it’s cool if there was, it’s too bad the panel time wasn’t invested early on but was for other characters. I appreciate that Ayala was able to have a whole character arc with Karma, whilst brilliantly balancing the rest of the NMs cast and establish a new black lesbian character with a comparable amount of issues for both their respective series.

I also don’t quite grasp why X-factor was expected to last more than two trades, if PAD’s last volume of X-Factor barely could, idk how it was thought that a book with the same title featuring C list characters and a much less known writer would, especially with the way the comic economy was and with the sales of issue 3 being in the danger zone already.

So, I'm not sure if you intended it this way, but how you phrased the bold bit above makes it seem like you don't think Daken is a queer character or that his relationship with Aurora doesn't count as a development for a queer character. Daken is a bisexual man, he doesn't stop being bisexual because he is in a relationship with a woman.

I think the character focus in X-Factor was very well balanced. The only one who kind of got shorted was Rachel, and it's pretty clear that Williams wanted to out the character. Kyle had story potential just by being the only human adult that we know of inhabiting Krakoa, there was also mention of him going to a job, which I think was going to be explored. My conspiracy theory is that he was originally going to be working with X-Corp, but then that book got pushed back a year so plans changed.

X-Factor was expected to last longer because it is the title dealing with resurrection, which is a pretty large concept that is a core aspect of this new era and it needed to be explored and there is a lot of story potential in dealing with it.

[Wiccan615]

So, I'm not sure if you intended it this way, but how you phrased the bold bit above makes it seem like you don't think Daken is a queer character or that his relationship with Aurora doesn't count as a development for a queer character. Daken is a bisexual man, he doesn't stop being bisexual because he is in a relationship with a woman.

I think the character focus in X-Factor was very well balanced. The only one who kind of got shorted was Rachel, and it's pretty clear that Williams wanted to out the character. Kyle had story potential just by being the only human adult that we know of inhabiting Krakoa, there was also mention of him going to a job, which I think was going to be explored. My conspiracy theory is that he was originally going to be working with X-Corp, but then that book got pushed back a year so plans changed.

X-Factor was expected to last longer because it is the title dealing with resurrection, which is a pretty large concept that is a core aspect of this new era and it needed to be explored and there is a lot of story potential in dealing with it.

I advise you to reread my post and note the use of the word “aforementioned”, meaning the queer characters that were relevant to the conversation prior to posting: Kyle, and David/Tommy, those were the queer characters brought up and were the ones that did not get development in the text and had their narratives cut short. That is the context, if you want to default that very explicit context as implying I think Daken is “less queer” because he was with Aurora (we still see his attraction to men in the Pride Anthology anyways, so it’s a moot point regardless) ,then that’s on you. There were ample queer characters that were in same sex ships in that book and them and their ship dynamics all got less focus, which is absolutely a point worth critiquing when talking about those characters and that’s what the context of the conversation was.

Daken being with Aurora is a whole other point worth examining moreso in relation to its abruptness and Daken’s sanitizing after falling in love with a white person, and having his redemption be conveyed primarily through the gaze of his love interest, regardless if the person is male or female, but that’s a different conversation and me being disappointed in his arc in general. He is a queer character with a romantic development that coincides with redemption over trauma but that redemption and trauma is almost entirely viewed through her lens and it’s her lens that gets the final 2 pages of David’s story arc, when they should have gone to David. But again, maybe that’s just me not getting the vantage points I wanted to see for David and Daken (regardless of who they were with).

I disagree that X-Factor’s character exploration was well balanced, if that was the case then we would not have had character arcs hastily ending in issue 10. Ofc, that’s not Leah’s fault but it does end up giving some characters more satisfactory arcs than others. It’s why I brought up Ayala, maybe I am biased but they’ve also only had a small number of issues and had done a good job balancing their different queer characters throughout and alongside their 2 casts, but I don’t see their books getting the same amount of love in queer circles.

That would be a cool direction to take Kyle, I think.

Resurrection is a concept that has been and is being explored in multiple books, and even if the pitch is large and has good storytelling potential, that doesn’t mean that the book will last long if the cast isn’t well known. Most people buy books based off characters/writers, not necessarily the potential of the pitch. If you told me a book about some large krakoa concept with story potential would be expected to last more than 2 trades while the sales of issue 3 were 25k, i wouldn’t have believed it then and still wouldn’t now.