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  1. #16
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Some of what follows is based on comparisons, and some on some relative scaling...

    Deku now, at 45%, is significantly faster than Gran Torino, someone who could trivially, casually blitz him when he was back at 5%.

    All Might, who had one of Deku's stack of powers, albeit at twice the level that unprepped Deku is rolling at now, has blitz scenes where he KO's a stack of villains across an area where nobody even sees him move. He's standing on one side, then he's standing on the other, and all of the villains are down, nobody has seen him move.

    All Might also has that feat against the first Nomu of hitting it... something over 300 times at his max level there, IIRC, in a tiny fraction of a second, overloading the Nomu's ability to absorb. That's massively more than bullet-timer to me. Spider Man or Danny Rand aren't punching full force 300 times in a fraction of a second, and those guys are pretty much the tippy top of "high end BT."

    Given that Deku can now use 45% of OFA's stat boost, it would seem like he should be capable of 45% or so of his performance without resorting to faux 100% / Fa Jin.

    Deku, Bakougo and Todoroki specifically trained speed with Endeavor, who was so fast when they started that he'd crossed a huge distance and blitzed their foe before the boys could really react or do much. Deku then shows, a short time later, that he's at the very least a good bit faster than Endeavor.

    Yes, Fa Jin / faux 100% took some on-the-fly, mid-fight "prep" but he outran a super bullet fired from a super powered arm gun wielded by someone who never misses out to 4km. That's way, way beyond bullet timing to me, which tracks based on All Might's feats, using, presumably 100% of OFA himself. And half of that (Deku's unamped 45% OFA) should thus also be way, way above simple bullet timing.

    Yes, calculations and scaling aren't the same as feats, and maybe it's a bridge too far. Sadly, or not, MHA doesn't really deal with gun battles too often, and it also gives some level of superhuman reaction speed to people with quirks where they really don't make sense. If the consensus is that we shouldn't transfer or calculate Deku's stuff that way for now, I'm not going to die defending that bridge.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
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  2. #17
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcogginsa View Post
    2. I figured, I just wanted to bring up Cazzam cause that's awesome
    Yeah, no disagreement here.

    ^_^
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  3. #18
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    All Might also has that feat against the first Nomu of hitting it... something over 300 times at his max level there, IIRC, in a tiny fraction of a second, overloading the Nomu's ability to absorb. That's massively more than bullet-timer to me. Spider Man or Danny Rand aren't punching full force 300 times in a fraction of a second, and those guys are pretty much the tippy top of "high end BT."
    If he's pulling that off, yeah; that's edging into Ranma territory of speed. And Ranma is rather hilariously past bullet-timers.
    Why are we here?

    "Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  4. #19
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    If he's pulling that off, yeah; that's edging into Ranma territory of speed. And Ranma is rather hilariously past bullet-timers.
    As I stated, that's All Might, not Deku, but Deku is rolling at 45% of the OFA Quirk now without hurting himself or resorting to Fa Jin, so... he should be somewhere around half-ish that? Again, it's all calcs and scaling. On the bright side for that, Deku's specific ability names include the precise percentage of OFA he's using, and we know, horse's mouth, that All Might uses 100%, so we at least get one fairly concrete point. We just don't know if OFA scales linearly with percentage of use. We don't have any reason to think that it doesn't, either.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  5. #20
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    All Might also has that feat against the first Nomu of hitting it... something over 300 times at his max level there, IIRC, in a tiny fraction of a second, overloading the Nomu's ability to absorb. That's massively more than bullet-timer to me. Spider Man or Danny Rand aren't punching full force 300 times in a fraction of a second, and those guys are pretty much the tippy top of "high end BT."
    This isn't accurate.

    All Might was hitting Nomu a hell of a lot but it was over time span that Deku and various other students were like "Oh wow, he's spitting blood and landing hits at 100% of his power," and then he nailed him with Plus Ultra and blasted him out of the building. He then said "Man, I've gotten sloppy, at my best I would have only needed to hit you like five times but I had to hit you 300 times there,"

    It was 300 hits over a short time frame, again definitely some kind of enhanced speed, but it certainly wasn't a fraction of a second at all. Long enough for All-Might to say some lines, long enough for regular speed students to react to it. Several seconds at least.

    The anime also added a bunch of extra choreography that spaced it all out even more.

  6. #21
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    This isn't accurate.

    All Might was hitting Nomu a hell of a lot but it was over time span that Deku and various other students were like "Oh wow, he's spitting blood and landing hits at 100% of his power," and then he nailed him with Plus Ultra and blasted him out of the building. He then said "Man, I've gotten sloppy, at my best I would have only needed to hit you like five times but I had to hit you 300 times there,"

    It was 300 hits over a short time frame, again definitely some kind of enhanced speed, but it certainly wasn't a fraction of a second at all. Long enough for All-Might to say some lines, long enough for regular speed students to react to it. Several seconds at least.

    The anime also added a bunch of extra choreography that spaced it all out even more.
    Yeah, I'm just speaking from the manga, and I read it a while ago. The anime did stretch it, IIRC. I apologize for the oversell.

    I'll go back and read the arc again.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
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  7. #22
    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Yeah, I'm just speaking from the manga, and I read it a while ago. The anime did stretch it, IIRC. I apologize for the oversell.

    I'll go back and read the arc again.
    The comic has about two pages of monologue while he's doing it. He definitely comes off as being fast enough to blitz faster than a nonspeedster can see in that arc though.
    I am a mighty wizard from magic lands

  8. #23
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    ...I completely retract my comment about him being anywhere in Ranma's ballpark if that's the case.

    Even the outfield.
    Why are we here?

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  9. #24
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    I just re-read 18 and 19.

    The first two blitzes in 18 are crazy fast.

    First, he's standing on top of a staircase, looking down at a bunch of villains in a large area. The next panel, he's blitzed down the huge staircase, across the large area and every villain is KO'd. It looks to be at least 100m or more, and none of them have the time to react at all.
    All Might Blitz.jpg

    Second, he's standing there on the other side of Nomu and Shiraki from Deku, Bakouguo and Todoroki, and blitzes again, around Nomu, Kurogiri and Shiraki, too fast for them to perceive and he grabs the boys and runs them to safety pretty far away.

    Both of those happen while everyone around is basically a statue.

    Shiraki comments that he's far too fast to handle (but slower than he used to be). Kurogiri monologues a bit about how their goal is to use Kurogiri's portals and Nomu's strength and toughness to chop All Might in half, since they can't remotely deal with his speed.

    A bit later, when Nomu is going to kill Kacchan to free Kurogiri, All Might again blitzes in and tanks the blast, saving Kacchan. Deku thinks that Kacchan moved so quickly that he, Deku, couldn't perceive it, to dodge the blow. Kacchan, who also didn't see anything, figures out that All Might blitzed in and tanked the shot.

    Then the punch spam on Nomu: clearly it's a blitz that is meant to convey superspeed. There is just a cloud to either side of him where his arms are supposed to be. There is some talking and Deku has some idea of what's happening. Hard to quantify exactly how fast it is. Fraction of a second was too fast. 15 seconds is certainly much too long. Maybe in the 5 to 8 second range? Here are a couple of images.

    All Might v Nomu 1.jpg
    All Might v Nomu 2.jpg
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  10. #25
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    ...I completely retract my comment about him being anywhere in Ranma's ballpark if that's the case.

    Even the outfield.
    Yeah, it's not Ranma level, I was misremembering. I cleared it up in another post. Mea Culpa.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan

  11. #26
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    I just re-read 18 and 19.

    The first two blitzes in 18 are crazy fast.
    I mean, by manga standards they really aren't that impressive. Especially since no one present there has any quantifiable speedfeats that place them beyond regular human, with the exception of Nomu who only scales against All-Might.

    Also, in the first scan that is most definitely not 100 metres. I would agree to 50m at maximum.

    Second, he's standing there on the other side of Nomu and Shiraki from Deku, Bakouguo and Todoroki, and blitzes again, around Nomu, Kurogiri and Shiraki, too fast for them to perceive and he grabs the boys and runs them to safety pretty far away.
    You're conflating feats I think?

    He dashes a very short distance while carrying Aizawa, snatches up Tsuyu, Mineta and Deku and then stops a short distance away.



    Again, in the grand scheme of the speeds at play here, it's not all that impressive. Especially since he's so strong, it's not like the

    Both of those happen while everyone around is basically a statue.
    Not reacting to something is not the same as All-Might perceiving people as statues, that's very generous language.

    All of this is to say that this is about the only scaling we have Deku in terms of speed outside of All-Might beating some Nomus and then travelling 5km in around 30 seconds and, critically, it's a bit unclear how much his power All-Might is capable of using at this point (since his powers were in decline) and how much of said power Deku can use.

    This is why I felt like "some ambiguous level of bullet timing," seemed like a fair ballpark for a speed ceiling in the people that I chose. With the exception of S Class which was intended to force the team battle scenario if nothing else could.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Hmmm, I went back and read the sequence myself. It does indeed require some significant set up.

    The issue is, how does this intersect with his nominal reactions? I assume that OFA amps his reaction time, right? I don't know if that's been explicitly stated in canon but All-Might had some ambiguous level of superspeed and Deku has his powers so it would follow.

    Do we have much of a read on how the different percentages impact his reaction time at all?
    IIRC, the first time he used 100 percent with Eri during the Overhaul fight, he was surprised by his own speed, in a way that suggested he couldn't keep up with it. So I think OfA provides the power necessary to go at speed, but the reaction times need training to get. MHA tends to take the attitude that training can give a certain degree of superhuman ability completely unrelated to your quirk. I think Mirio protecting Eri might count as a bullet reaction, but I can't remember the specifics that well

  13. #28
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I mean, by manga standards they really aren't that impressive. Especially since no one present there has any quantifiable speedfeats that place them beyond regular human, with the exception of Nomu who only scales against All-Might.

    Also, in the first scan that is most definitely not 100 metres. I would agree to 50m at maximum.
    Looks longer than that to me, but even if you only want to call it thatl, it's still 50m with 10 KOs (there are 10 people lying on the ground) and none of them move at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    You're conflating feats I think?

    He dashes a very short distance while carrying Aizawa, snatches up Tsuyu, Mineta and Deku and then stops a short distance away.



    Again, in the grand scheme of the speeds at play here, it's not all that impressive. Especially since he's so strong, it's not like the
    Sorry, I meant Tsuyu, Mineta and Deku, not the boys there. But it's still the right feat. You can see from the art in the big panel that he left a slight afterimage on one side of Nomu and Shiraki (bottom left in the art), and was on the other side picking up the kids, then going far enough away that they are pretty tiny in the distance, all before Nomu and Shiraki move at all. They haven't even begun to turn at when he was just a few meters behind them and picking up the kids and they are still facing the wrong way when he's setting them all down at a safe-ish distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post

    Not reacting to something is not the same as All-Might perceiving people as statues, that's very generous language.

    All of this is to say that this is about the only scaling we have Deku in terms of speed outside of All-Might beating some Nomus and then travelling 5km in around 30 seconds and, critically, it's a bit unclear how much his power All-Might is capable of using at this point (since his powers were in decline) and how much of said power Deku can use.

    This is why I felt like "some ambiguous level of bullet timing," seemed like a fair ballpark for a speed ceiling in the people that I chose. With the exception of S Class which was intended to force the team battle scenario if nothing else could.
    The main reason I think it's a lot faster than just "ambiguous level of bullet timing" is that in faux 100% OFA he literally outruns a bullet fired from a weapon that has to have at least the muzzle velocity of a stupidly high powered rifle - think Browning .50 cal minimum, to make a 100% kill rate at 4km - and, crucially to make this more than just a travel speed feat, performs precise actions while that bullet is still in flight. That's just stupidly, massively faster than bullet timers can do. Spidey or Iron Fist couldn't come within a factor of 10 of doing something like that. Yes, I stip the fact that faux 100% requires some setup, but 45% explicitly doesn't. It's his standard level now, and if that's the case, then he should be somewhere above even high-end bullet timers, and adds combat precog to that mix as well. That's just too much for so many of these foes here, especially given that he hits easily hard enough to take out most of them.

    Yes, one could tag that feat as an outlier, but it doesn't seem grossly out of presentation for All Might at 100% OFA, and it was explicitly 100% OFA (if faux) for Deku, right in the text.
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    "Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
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  14. #29
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Looks longer than that to me, but even if you only want to call it thatl, it's still 50m with 10 KOs (there are 10 people lying on the ground) and none of them move at all.
    Some of those dudes were on the floor before All Might entered the scene, anime confirms it as six people knocked out.

    Sorry, I meant Tsuyu, Mineta and Deku, not the boys there. But it's still the right feat. You can see from the art in the big panel that he left a slight afterimage on one side of Nomu and Shiraki (bottom left in the art), and was on the other side picking up the kids, then going far enough away that they are pretty tiny in the distance, all before Nomu and Shiraki move at all. They haven't even begun to turn at when he was just a few meters behind them and picking up the kids and they are still facing the wrong way when he's setting them all down at a safe-ish distance.
    I did not read that indistinct shape as an afterimage, I took that as dust kicked up by his motion.

    Again, in the same sequence in the anime, there's no afterimage but there is a dust cloud in front of Nomu and Shigaraki which would support my reading.

    Also, "Pretty tiny,"? They are like maximum 15 metres away. They are within like a five seconds jog distance.

    The main reason I think it's a lot faster than just "ambiguous level of bullet timing" is that in faux 100% OFA he literally outruns a bullet fired from a weapon that has to have at least the muzzle velocity of a stupidly high powered rifle - think Browning .50 cal minimum, to make a 100% kill rate at 4km - and, crucially to make this more than just a travel speed feat, performs precise actions while that bullet is still in flight. That's just stupidly, massively faster than bullet timers can do. Spidey or Iron Fist couldn't come within a factor of 10 of doing something like that. Yes, I stip the fact that faux 100% requires some setup, but 45% explicitly doesn't. It's his standard level now, and if that's the case, then he should be somewhere above even high-end bullet timers, and adds combat precog to that mix as well. That's just too much for so many of these foes here, especially given that he hits easily hard enough to take out most of them.

    Yes, one could tag that feat as an outlier, but it doesn't seem grossly out of presentation for All Might at 100% OFA, and it was explicitly 100% OFA (if faux) for Deku, right in the text.
    I'm not denying that the Nagant feat is good, as I've said previously, it's arguably the best and cleanest speed feat in the entire show. However, Deku having to explicitly do a complex set up to amp his speed to the point where he can do that leaves us with a pretty ambiguous idea of where his nominal speed sits in relation to that, especially when all his other speed feats (and arguably All Might's as well) aren't anywhere near that.

    I'm not on the level of calling it SMvsFL because it's an amped stat for him in terms of speed but I don't think it translates to "I can fight competently at massively-faster-than-bullet" speeds of reaction.

    This is why I put the kung fu team in there, I figure Deku (at or whatever passes for normal) is at some level of bullet timing based on the fact he has some decision-making capacity while Nagant's bullets are in flight. I also figure he can, for single burst of movement, (like a specific big jump or whatever) amp himself a fair bit beyond that with Fa Jin.

    My feeling is that if the kung fu team could close distance on him, their vastly superior skill and superior numbers aren't going to let him do the set up once more. I figure he gets one or two with a Fa Jin rush but then he's close range and they can actually put hands on him.

    Obviously, this is all open to debate but that's my logic with the setup.
    Last edited by Nik Hasta; 06-25-2021 at 07:23 AM.

  15. #30
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Also, because the bridge fight has been trending on Twitter, I ended up watching a bunch of Tai Lung's feats and man that dude is a handful by himself.

    He has speed feats, amusingly enough, that pretty much directly parallel the All-Might feats we've been discussing above (blitzing groups of dudes over medium distances/instantly crossing shorter distances) and he hits like an absolute train, is stupid durable and has paralysing pressure points to boot.

    Hmm...

    Between him, Baki and Iron Fist, I might have over-egged that pudding a smidge. :/

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