Spider-Man Beyond

[Spiderfan001]

So, I just saw a post about this on DeviantArt of all places, and my immediate reaction was that it was someone's fan-fiction. I then discovered it was real. So naturally, I was a little conflicted. You see, Ben was the Spidey that got me into Spidey books and after Revelations #4 back in '96, I almost dropped it all over again. As it turned out, that subsequently didn't happen until 2007, ironically for precisely the same reason I'd started buying Spidey books in the first place - they replaced Peter with Peter. Even now, I still consider Ben 'My' Spidey more so than Pete. So if you had told me a few years ago that he'd be back as Spidey and headlining Amazing, I would have been beyond (no pun intended) stoked.

But that was before the monstrosity that was Clone Conspiracy and the abject failure that was Not-Ben's solo book. Recent years have not been kind to Ben, and going by the publicity for this very book, it's already pretty clear that absolutely no good is going to come from this for him. I mean, just look at the language used in the promo...



It's already seemingly setting up Ben as a threat to Peter, and that he is somehow responsible (indirectly or otherwise) for whatever happens to him. And that's without getting to which Ben this is. Even after other writers have attempted to fix the mess that was Clone Conspiracy and the Scarlet Spider solo, at no point has new Ben felt even vaguely like actual Ben. But with the Beyond Corporation involved, the possibility obviously exists that this could be a different/alternate Ben entirely. Which I'm not sure would be better or worse.

Then there's Lowe's quote, asking "Can he accomplish things the original Spider-Man never could?". A question that basically sets up the entire story for Ben to ultimately fail, so that Pete can eventually step up and be the "One True Spider-Man" all over again. And frankly I'd already had enough of that phrase 25 years ago.

But hey. Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Spidey editorial will go completely against form and this will be genuinely great for Ben.

All this.

Except the fact that most people want this to be good for Pete.So even in best case scenario most fans lose.
And before people jump on me, it's ASM.I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask that Peter be the main character whose arc is given the most importance.

[Spiderfan001]

Just, when has Amazing Spider-Man been written by a truly A-list writer?

Legitimately speaking the biggest names I can think of are JMS and Stan Lee (and in a time where the market was very different). Waid and Kelly also had a name to them by the time they wrote it during BND, but outside of those ASM doesn't really use big A-list writers.

For that matter, in this thread it seems everyone is more excited about Zeb Wells, despite the fact that he is probably the least commercially successful writer of this team. Ahmed and Thompson have Eisner nominations (and a Hugo for Ahmed) under their belts, as well as they made of two characters that were constantly renumbered into steady sellers and about to be the longest continuos runs of each (Miles and Carol).

I can't speak for Gleason and Kane since they are the most unknown to me, but to say that there isn't talent in this team is just wrong.

They haven't(aside from JMS and lee as you said) and we could use one rn.

Zeb Wells's Hellions has been one of if not the best written comic this year.I just don't like how immature he writes Spidey.

Again if this works I will be extremely happy.

But the pitch doesn't work for me as a peter fan or even as someone who thinks Ben is cool since it pretty much sets him up to be villain or being manipulated.

[Snoop Dogg]

Zeb Wells is the only consistently good writer on the team. Ben Reilly is a flop character who is the star of one of the most embarassing messes in the company's history, an event his fans hate because he wasn't boring enough, and a bad PAD book. The schedule is thrice monthly which only ever worked because of Stephen Wacker, a wizard who edited 52. Lowe couldn't do a double-shipping ASM run well. The only thing indicating they're not completely out of ideas is the Beyond corporation which is presumably there so Kelly Thompson can continue her holy crusade of trying to be as funny as Nextwave and failing.

This is the best thing to happen to Spider-Man since the Clone Saga.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Just, when has Amazing Spider-Man been written by a truly A-list writer?

You mean at time of hiring?
-- Marv Wolfman was well known and notable figure when he started his Spider-Man coming right after a Fantastic Four run.
-- David Michelinie was A-List when he started Spider-Man, coming off a successful Iron Man run
-- Nick Spencer as an author of successful creator-owned properties, and a controversial and headlines and social-media famous Captain America storyline was certainly A-List, even non-comics people learned his name thanks to Secret Empire.
-- J. Michael Straczynski, as in actual A-List, with TV fame and actual Hollywood connections.

A lot of writers became A-List (i.e. in terms of fame) after starting out on Spider-Man -- Conway, Len Wein, Roger Stern, Tom Defalco, Dan Slott.

Legitimately speaking the biggest names I can think of are JMS and Stan Lee (and in a time where the market was very different).

Stan Lee wasn't exactly a very famous person when he wrote Amazing Fantasy #15 published in 1962 or even ASM#1 the following year. The Marvel publicity and fame didn't happen overnight with the first Fantastic Four and first ASM, and it was about 1964 or so that Stan really became famous. At the outset in the Marvel era, only Kirby would qualify as A-List (i.e. known figure in the comics industry as a writer-artist).

For that matter, in this thread it seems everyone is more excited about Zeb Wells, despite the fact that he is probably the least commercially successful writer of this team. Ahmed and Thompson have Eisner nominations (and a Hugo for Ahmed) under their belts, as well as they made of two characters that were constantly renumbered into steady sellers and about to be the longest continuos runs of each (Miles and Carol).

Well white-dude is default always assumed to be the leader, in promotion and fan expectations, so what else is new?

[Shunt]

So, I just saw a post about this on DeviantArt of all places, and my immediate reaction was that it was someone's fan-fiction. I then discovered it was real. So naturally, I was a little conflicted. You see, Ben was the Spidey that got me into Spidey books and after Revelations #4 back in '96, I almost dropped it all over again. As it turned out, that subsequently didn't happen until 2007, ironically for precisely the same reason I'd started buying Spidey books in the first place - they replaced Peter with Peter. Even now, I still consider Ben 'My' Spidey more so than Pete. So if you had told me a few years ago that he'd be back as Spidey and headlining Amazing, I would have been beyond (no pun intended) stoked.

But that was before the monstrosity that was Clone Conspiracy and the abject failure that was Not-Ben's solo book. Recent years have not been kind to Ben, and going by the publicity for this very book, it's already pretty clear that absolutely no good is going to come from this for him. I mean, just look at the language used in the promo...



It's already seemingly setting up Ben as a threat to Peter, and that he is somehow responsible (indirectly or otherwise) for whatever happens to him. And that's without getting to which Ben this is. Even after other writers have attempted to fix the mess that was Clone Conspiracy and the Scarlet Spider solo, at no point has new Ben felt even vaguely like actual Ben. But with the Beyond Corporation involved, the possibility obviously exists that this could be a different/alternate Ben entirely. Which I'm not sure would be better or worse.

Then there's Lowe's quote, asking "Can he accomplish things the original Spider-Man never could?". A question that basically sets up the entire story for Ben to ultimately fail, so that Pete can eventually step up and be the "One True Spider-Man" all over again. And frankly I'd already had enough of that phrase 25 years ago.

But hey. Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Spidey editorial will go completely against form and this will be genuinely great for Ben.

This is very spot-on. I really hope the outcome if satisfactory for both characters and both of them end up being triumphant, but I'm not exactly betting on it.

[RJT]

BND lasted from 2008-2010, they published three issues monthly so that gives the illusion of a long run since you generate more content in a short time, but that's not exactly longevity.

No publisher puts out a bad selling comic three times a month for three years. It sold well for them. One of the BND writers was able to move onto to be the solo writer for an additional 8 years. You don’t keep one writer on a book for eight years for any other reason that it sells well when they are writing it.

And while we’re at it, the Clone Saga and the Ben Reilly Spider-Man outsold JMS by a substantial amount. So maybe we can stop with definitive statements about what weee good eras of Spider-Man and what were bad eras. Sales are not abstract numbers; they represent people—both retailers and readers—and the number of people chattering about this on boards like these represent only a minute fraction of even the smallest Spider-Man readership.

I’ve been collecting Spider-Man since 1983 and have only dropped the books twice in that time. Once was early during Maximum Carnage. I came back for the Clone Saga. The second time was during Sins Past. And I came back for Brand New Day. (I’ve since gone back and picked up and read all the issues I missed during those two lapses.)
I’ve read every issue of Amazing Spider-Man comic ever multiple times. Are you going to argue that I’m not a big enough fan?

Or can you just accept that some people like some comics, some people like different ones, and there will never be consensus about any of them?

[Snoop Dogg]

And while we’re at it, the Clone Saga and the Ben Reilly Spider-Man outsold JMS by a substantial amount. So maybe we can stop with definitive statements about what weee good eras of Spider-Man and what were bad eras. Sales are not abstract numbers; they represent people—both retailers and readers—and the number of people chattering about this on boards like these represent only a minute fraction of even the smallest Spider-Man readership.

Like every 90's Spider-Man comic not by JMD, it's bad because I read it.

Or can you just accept that some people like some comics, some people like different ones, and there will never be consensus about any of them?

No.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

No publisher puts out a bad selling comic three times a month for three years.

Spider-Man generally sells well and BND certainly sold more titles than Tim Drake Robin solo ongoing or whatever, but it was certainly a comedown from the previous era and it wasn't until the Dan Slott events that sales picked up again.

Some individual issues did well, but not really for the content. The biggest selling issue was the one with Obama on the cover meeting Spider-Man, not the first and last time a company makes money leeching of a successful African-American (I will say that at least DC/WB gave Muhammad Ali a cut of the sales when they had him fight Superman).

One of the BND writers was able to move onto to be the solo writer for an additional 8 years.

Slott wasn't the first choice to write after BND. It was apparently offered to a few writers such as Matt Fraction (at least that was the rumor Slott once mentioned on podcast) who turned it down, and Slott was surprised when he was offered.

And while we’re at it, the Clone Saga and the Ben Reilly Spider-Man outsold JMS by a substantial amount.

-- Mid-90s, speculator, right before the collapse of the comics market (and actually the Clone Saga contributed to that).
-- Sales of the Clone Saga tanked when they claimed Peter was the clone and Ben was the real Spider-Man, and Ben failed as franchise protagonist.
-- When JMS came over, it was the tail end of the Clone Saga and Post-Clone Saga period so he started in a period of slump (caused by the Clone Saga) and had to restore the title to stability, so that's something you can credit to his writing and storytelling rather than just Spider-Man, the movie helped but JMS wrote ASM wrote a year before the movie and he had to compete with Bendis' USM (a year before JMS started) which benefited from reader revolt at the doldrums of Mackie/Byrne's run and Clone Saga malaise.

[Snoop Dogg]

You mean at time of hiring?
-- Marv Wolfman was well known and notable figure when he started his Spider-Man coming right after a Fantastic Four run.
-- David Michelinie was A-List when he started Spider-Man, coming off a successful Iron Man run
-- Nick Spencer as an author of successful creator-owned properties, and a controversial and headlines and social-media famous Captain America storyline was certainly A-List, even non-comics people learned his name thanks to Secret Empire.
-- J. Michael Straczynski, as in actual A-List, with TV fame and actual Hollywood connections.

Since all of these runs are bad, it indicates we need more nobodies. I think they should kidnap someone off the street at random to write ASM.

[bob.schoonover]

Since all of these runs are bad, it indicates we need more nobodies. I think they should kidnap someone off the street at random to write ASM.

I bet Dick Cheney has a good Spiderman story to tell

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Since all of these runs are bad, it indicates we need more nobodies.

I distinctly recall you professing your love for Nick Spencer's Secret Empire and Captain America, and also being his biggest cheerleader at the start of the run.

So where did the love go?

[RJT]

Spider-Man generally sells well and BND certainly sold more titles than Tim Drake Robin solo ongoing or whatever, but it was certainly a comedown from the previous era and it wasn't until the Dan Slott events that sales picked up again.

Some individual issues did well, but not really for the content. The biggest selling issue was the one with Obama on the cover meeting Spider-Man, not the first and last time a company makes money leeching of a successful African-American (I will say that at least DC/WB gave Muhammad Ali a cut of the sales when they had him fight Superman).



Slott wasn't the first choice to write after BND. It was apparently offered to a few writers such as Matt Fraction (at least that was the rumor Slott once mentioned on podcast) who turned it down, and Slott was surprised when he was offered.



-- Mid-90s, speculator, right before the collapse of the comics market (and actually the Clone Saga contributed to that).
-- Sales of the Clone Saga tanked when they claimed Peter was the clone and Ben was the real Spider-Man, and Ben failed as franchise protagonist.
-- When JMS came over, it was the tail end of the Clone Saga and Post-Clone Saga period so he started in a period of slump (caused by the Clone Saga) and had to restore the title to stability, so that's something you can credit to his writing and storytelling rather than just Spider-Man, the movie helped but JMS wrote ASM wrote a year before the movie and he had to compete with Bendis' USM (a year before JMS started) which benefited from reader revolt at the doldrums of Mackie/Byrne's run and Clone Saga malaise.

I mean, why don’t you just bust out a chart of the nation’s GDP over the period, or provide weather charts to show that it rained more on days that JMS issues were released?
I could come up with just as many caveats to explain why JMS sold what he did despite the fact that he wrote two of the most reviled stories in Spider-Man history. It’s not like he came on board at a time when Marvel was have a creative renaissance that led to a rise in the sales of many of their books after a moribund period in the late 90s under Bob Harras. And why does Spider-Man being a book that traditionally sells well count against the BND team but it isn’t a factor for JMS? It’s not like he has had a ton of big selling comics after OMD.
“I heard a rumor once…”
Cool. Doesn’t invalidate the FACT that Dan Slott wrote the book and kept it at the very top of the sales charts for 8 years. And I’m sure you’re going to say “Spider-Man sells no matter who writes it” (unless we’re talking about JMS who sold that book on his name alone) or that Slott filled his run with events (unlike JMS who only exploited 9/11 for sales, did events like “Sins Past,” “The Other,” “Back in Black,” and “One More Day.”)
I’m not going to deny that JMS was a popular Spider-Man writer. But every caveat you have to explain away the success of runs you don’t like equally apply to JMS, so maybe just talk about things you like and things you don’t, instead of pretending Steve Ditko came down from Heaven with a tablet with all the unyielding truths about Spider-Man for you and you alone.

Just let people like what they like.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, why don’t you just bust out a chart of the nation’s GDP over the period, or provide weather charts to show that it rained more on days that JMS issues were released?

I could come up with just as many caveats to explain why JMS sold what he did despite the fact that he wrote two of the most reviled stories in Spider-Man history.

If you mean Sins' Past, that was mid-way into his run in 2004, after his work with JRJR finished. In the case of OMD, that was never his story anyway (unlike Sins' Past for which he has taken responsibility), and that happened at the very end. JMS' last full story on Spider-Man - Back in Black - was successful and remains popular.

It’s not like he came on board at a time when Marvel was have a creative renaissance that led to a rise in the sales of many of their books after a moribund period in the late 90s under Bob Harras.

Actually he did. JMS began his run in 2001, one year after Bob Harras left in 2000 and was one of the prize high profile names to work at Marvel, alongside Grant Morrison who began his work on New X-Men.

And why does Spider-Man being a book that traditionally sells well count against the BND team but it isn’t a factor for JMS?

JMS restored the title to after 6 years of controversial, unpopular and demoralizing stories that drove readers away, mostly to Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man that started in 2000. BND had to come in and justify the worst story in ASM until that time (followed soon in BND with OMIT, even worse than OMD).

(unless we’re talking about JMS who sold that book on his name alone)

I never said that. I was pointing to JMS' achievement. JMS came in when the titles were in the doldrums and outsold by an AU title and he restored prestige and sales and morale. That's a greater achievement than coming in after equity had built up (thanks to JMS) and doing average sells for a major title (BND) and then generating success of events (like Slott).

unlike JMS who only exploited 9/11 for sales,

1) I don't see how a single issue story qualifies as an event.

2) The 9/11 issue was something Marvel editorial asked him i.e. they said write something for 9/11 with Spider-Man since Marvel felt they had to address it. JMS didn't even do a full script for that. He just wrote a long prose piece and didn't specify panels and image breakdowns leaving it entirely to JRJR and the inker Hanna to illustrate. So it's not like this was JMS himself doing it.

3) It was a popular issue with actual survivors and family members around Ground Zero.

... instead of pretending Steve Ditko came down from Heaven with a tablet with all the unyielding truths about Spider-Man for you and you alone...

Steve Ditko was an atheist much like myself, so got no truck for that.

[RJT]

Actually he did. JMS began his run in 2001, one year after Bob Harras left in 2000 and was one of the prize high profile names to work at Marvel, alongside Grant Morrison who began his work on New X-Men.

I guess you missed my sarcasm. I know the history. My point was that JMS’ Spider-Man was concurrent with a general uptick in most of Marvel’s major (and some minor) titles as Quesada took over as EiC and Bill Jemas exerted his influence as Marvel’s president. My point was that “a rising tide lifts all boats” and that JMS benefitted from more readers checking out Marvel’s line overall.

[RJT]

If you mean Sins' Past, that was mid-way into his run in 2004, after his work with JRJR finished. In the case of OMD, that was never his story anyway (unlike Sins' Past for which he has taken responsibility), and that happened at the very end. JMS' last full story on Spider-Man - Back in Black - was successful and remains popular.

Oh, he took responsibility for Sins Past? Well, isn’t that big of him. Since he conceived of and wrote the story, I’m really impressed he took responsibility for it.