Spider-Man Beyond

[Spiderfan001]

If you take my comment in a vacuum, instead of seeing the context of it being a reply to someone saying this 4 line pitch has massive flaws, I'll agree with you whole heartedly. It's of course controversial, it's of course a high wire act that might massively disappoint. It's of course fair for someone to say, "I just want Peter as Spider-man so I'm not happy." It's patently absurd to say, "This story that I haven't read yet is flawed because of my guess at how the story previous to it will end."

Again we have experience.Let's see a couple points
1)Revolving door of writers on one title is a bad idea both in theory and from experience
2)Said writers aren't really great. B and C tier
3)We already did the replacing Peter stuff 5 times
4)We already did it with Ben himself
5)The promo reads like an idea for bad fanfic with nonsensical plot twists
6)We should be using clean slate courtesy of Spencer to do classic stories instead of making another mess
7)Sidelining main character(in a disrespectful way if promo is to be believed)

there are some more but I'm not typing all this again

[PCN24454]

Again we have experience.Let's see a couple points
1)Revolving door of writers on one title is a bad idea both in theory and from experience
2)Said writers aren't really great. B and C tier
3)We already did the replacing Peter stuff 5 times
4)We already did it with Ben himself
5)The promo reads like an idea for bad fanfic with nonsensical plot twists
6)We should be using clean slate courtesy of Spencer to do classic stories instead of making another mess
7)Sidelining main character(in a disrespectful way if promo is to be believed)

there are some more but I'm not typing all this again

You know, Peter isn't the be-all end-all of the universe. That's what happens when you have a well-established setting. It can survive without you.

[RD155]

Things that would cause uproar:
-- Slott coming back as lead writer for a second run.
-- MJ getting killed.
-- Peter/MJ having another break-up.
-- Revisiting and acknowledging Sins' Past in 616 Continuity again.
-- Jameson getting killed.

Ben Reilly isn't quite up there. As a character he's bland and unassuming, by himself he doesn't provoke strong feelings but it's what the character represents in terms of stories, trends, and tendencies by editorial and other places that causes the response. The normalization of the "2nd Clone Saga" i.e. lowering standards so that people treat it as a great classic story when it wasn't, ignoring all the issues and problems that it did, the historic damage it did to the continuity...all that gets papered over a bit like how Bush administration officials during the Trump era get to be celebrated as "statesman" or as the phrase puts it, "arsonists posing as firefighters".

I agree. I don’t think Ben is the problem. It’s more so the attempt at replacing Peter that Marvel went with. As I’ve said in the previous post I feel that this story seems to be coming at the wrong time. We’ve just gone way too long without having Peter consistently be the star of his own title.

Simply put....it’s just frustrating to have so much potential and it not being tapped in to in regards to the character.

[RD155]

You know, Peter isn't the be-all end-all of the universe. That's what happens when you have a well-established setting. It can survive without you.

True to an extent ....

However, Peter hasn’t been the focus of this title for some time now. Can the environment survive? Yes, ASM will survive. Peter Parker is the star of the title though. It’s his world. A consumer shouldn’t be forced to consistently read stories where he’s just a back seat passenger riding along for the trip.

[Spiderfan001]

You know, Peter isn't the be-all end-all of the universe. That's what happens when you have a well-established setting. It can survive without you.

Well it's his book.
You want to make a Scarlet Spider book go ahead.
ASM is a Peter book.

Also you ignore all the other points

[Spiderfan001]

True to an extent ....

However, Peter hasn’t been the focus of this title for some time now. Can the environment survive? Yes, ASM will survive. Peter Parker is the star of the title though. It’s his world. A consumer shouldn’t be forced to consistently read stories where he’s just a back seat passenger riding along for the trip.

Exactly.
I don't mind if they wanna do a Ben solo just do it in his own book.
I read ASM for Peter and most other people do too.

[PCN24454]

Well it's his book.
You want to make a Scarlet Spider book go ahead.
ASM is a Peter book.

Also you ignore all the other points

That's because they're repetitive, and I honestly don't trust your opinion specifically.

You talked about Peter's trauma making him worthy as though none of the other characters went through trauma and worked to overcome it. Miles' universe getting reconfigured, Ben dealing with the fact that he's a clone, Gwen and her Peter... Peter isn't the only one who went through trauma. Even if he was, trauma in and of itself isn't really that admirable.

[RJT]

Again we have experience.Let's see a couple points
1)Revolving door of writers on one title is a bad idea both in theory and from experience
2)Said writers aren't really great. B and C tier

The Brand New Day era made it work for 100 issues, and none of those writers were top tier, big name writers when they started.

The Superman books did it this way for over 10 years, and while creators like Jurgens became big name creators over that period, at the beginning they were not.

It remains to be seen if this upcoming run will be any good, but this kind of writing set-up has been successful in the past.

[RD155]

That's because they're repetitive, and I honestly don't trust your opinion specifically.

You talked about Peter's trauma making him worthy as though none of the other characters went through trauma and worked to overcome it. Miles' universe getting reconfigured, Ben dealing with the fact that he's a clone, Gwen and her Peter... Peter isn't the only one who went through trauma. Even if he was, trauma in and of itself isn't really that admirable.

Trauma in and of itself isn’t intended to be admirable.

It’s more so how said “victim” recovers or bounces back from it. Peter kind of symbolizes that to a T.

People I think are over complicating this issue with why they want Peter as the lone star of the book. Bottom line is, it’s his book and we just want to read stories centered on him and that hasn’t been happening consistently at all.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The Brand New Day era made it work for 100 issues, and none of those writers were top tier, big name writers when they started.

Not all of them were there when it started. And saleswise, BND was a big comedown from even the early JMS years.

The Superman books did it this way for over 10 years, and while creators like Jurgens became big name creators over that period, at the beginning they were not.

How well did it do before Superman was killed, and after he returned?

It remains to be seen if this upcoming run will be any good, but this kind of writing set-up has been successful in the past.

In Spider-Man it has always produced polarizing divisive periods -- the 2nd Clone Saga, BND.

But hey maybe third time's the charm.

[RJT]

Not all of them were there when it started. And saleswise, BND was a big comedown from even the early JMS years.



How well did it do before Superman was killed, and after he returned?



In Spider-Man it has always produced polarizing divisive periods -- the 2nd Clone Saga, BND.

But hey maybe third time's the charm.

Regardless of what you think subjectively about each of these instances, objectively they sold well—as evidenced by the fact that they lasted so long. Jurgens, Ordway, Stern, Simonson, et al. worked collaboratively on the Superman books for three to four years before the Death of Superman and continued on for seven years after. Brand New Day lasted for 100 issues—if it wasn’t working and selling and remaining profitable for Marvel they would have ended it long before it got that far.

[Vworp Vworp]

So, I just saw a post about this on DeviantArt of all places, and my immediate reaction was that it was someone's fan-fiction. I then discovered it was real. So naturally, I was a little conflicted. You see, Ben was the Spidey that got me into Spidey books and after Revelations #4 back in '96, I almost dropped it all over again. As it turned out, that subsequently didn't happen until 2007, ironically for precisely the same reason I'd started buying Spidey books in the first place - they replaced Peter with Peter. Even now, I still consider Ben 'My' Spidey more so than Pete. So if you had told me a few years ago that he'd be back as Spidey and headlining Amazing, I would have been beyond (no pun intended) stoked.

But that was before the monstrosity that was Clone Conspiracy and the abject failure that was Not-Ben's solo book. Recent years have not been kind to Ben, and going by the publicity for this very book, it's already pretty clear that absolutely no good is going to come from this for him. I mean, just look at the language used in the promo...

"The saga will kick off in AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #75 where Ben Reilly will return to take back the mantle of Spider-Man. Backed by the Beyond Corporation, the captivating clone of Peter Parker is determined to be the best version of Spider-Man there ever was. And as yesterday’s teasers showed, this could have fatal consequences for Peter Parker…"

It's already seemingly setting up Ben as a threat to Peter, and that he is somehow responsible (indirectly or otherwise) for whatever happens to him. And that's without getting to which Ben this is. Even after other writers have attempted to fix the mess that was Clone Conspiracy and the Scarlet Spider solo, at no point has new Ben felt even vaguely like actual Ben. But with the Beyond Corporation involved, the possibility obviously exists that this could be a different/alternate Ben entirely. Which I'm not sure would be better or worse.

Then there's Lowe's quote, asking "Can he accomplish things the original Spider-Man never could?". A question that basically sets up the entire story for Ben to ultimately fail, so that Pete can eventually step up and be the "One True Spider-Man" all over again. And frankly I'd already had enough of that phrase 25 years ago.

But hey. Maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps Spidey editorial will go completely against form and this will be genuinely great for Ben.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Regardless of what you think subjectively about each of these instances, objectively they sold well—as evidenced by the fact that they lasted so long.

BND lasted from 2008-2010, they published three issues monthly so that gives the illusion of a long run since you generate more content in a short time, but that's not exactly longevity.

[Spider-Chan]

1)Revolving door of writers on one title is a bad idea both in theory and from experience
2)Said writers aren't really great. B and C tier

Just, when has Amazing Spider-Man been written by a truly A-list writer?

Legitimately speaking the biggest names I can think of are JMS and Stan Lee (and in a time where the market was very different). Waid and Kelly also had a name to them by the time they wrote it during BND, but outside of those ASM doesn't really use big A-list writers.

For that matter, in this thread it seems everyone is more excited about Zeb Wells, despite the fact that he is probably the least commercially successful writer of this team. Ahmed and Thompson have Eisner nominations (and a Hugo for Ahmed) under their belts, as well as they made of two characters that were constantly renumbered into steady sellers and about to be the longest continuos runs of each (Miles and Carol).

I can't speak for Gleason and Kane since they are the most unknown to me, but to say that there isn't talent in this team is just wrong.

[Spiderfan001]

Trauma in and of itself isn’t intended to be admirable.

It’s more so how said “victim” recovers or bounces back from it. Peter kind of symbolizes that to a T.

People I think are over complicating this issue with why they want Peter as the lone star of the book. Bottom line is, it’s his book and we just want to read stories centered on him and that hasn’t been happening consistently at all.

This.
Marvel needs to understand that we don't come to see peter suffer and fall.We come to see how gets back up and moves on.Everything about Nick Lowe's para is just wrong to me.