Spider-Man Beyond

[bob.schoonover]

Why the hell would he lie about that.
He wants Peter and MJ to take the deal.
Lying about this will only discourage them.
And it's not like they will remember this since Mephisto has no interest in reversing the deal.We know this because he (apparently)doesn't know about Kindred.
I do hope they address the child.

One answer to why he'd lie: the thing Mephisto needs is the strongest possible scar on Peter's soul. The more Peter believes he is giving up, the more powerful the score for Mephisto.

Another answer: he knew Peter would ultimately take the Deal and it's funnier to Mephisto to turn the screws.

Another answer: Mephisto can see the future and knows a future Parker child will be his downfall. By telling Peter taking the Deal prevents that child from existing, the echo of the Deal creates a psychic block that makes Peter not want children.

[bishop66]

so no disrepecet to the creators involved zeb wells hellions is one of my favorite book and kelly thompson is a great writer but not a chance in hell they let these people take over amazing full time they are b list to c list at the best and although ahmed is writing a fantastic miles book sales on his books have been lackluster to be kind...figure this is a stop gap for a few months until the new writer takes the reigns becuase the lead time on the 2xmonth book is crazy and they want a good 12 to 20 scripts/plots locked in

[Spiderfan001]

One answer to why he'd lie: the thing Mephisto needs is the strongest possible scar on Peter's soul. The more Peter believes he is giving up, the more powerful the score for Mephisto.

Another answer: he knew Peter would ultimately take the Deal and it's funnier to Mephisto to turn the screws.

Another answer: Mephisto can see the future and knows a future Parker child will be his downfall. By telling Peter taking the Deal prevents that child from existing, the echo of the Deal creates a psychic block that makes Peter not want children.

Fair enough.

Then again anything a remotely shady character says can have real motives.

You are making theories that he is lying but from what we know he isn't and they haven't addressed it in a decade and unless they do we really have no reason to believe he was lying.
Also your theories while good are also only relevant because you are making rules of your own.We know that he wants the deal for their love which is extremely rare.

It says nothing about scars on Peter's soul or seeing the future or psychic blocks.You are making stuff up from thin air and are saying something stated in canon is wrong.Your argument doesn't really have a backbone to stand one.

[vhm74]

Well... If Peter's out, I'm out too.

[Spiderfan001]

so no disrepecet to the creators involved zeb wells hellions is one of my favorite book and kelly thompson is a great writer but not a chance in hell they let these people take over amazing full time they are b list to c list at the best and although ahmed is writing a fantastic miles book sales on his books have been lackluster to be kind...figure this is a stop gap for a few months until the new writer takes the reigns becuase the lead time on the 2xmonth book is crazy and they want a good 12 to 20 scripts/plots locked in

Agreed.Seems like a rotating door style until they can figure out or get the writer they really want.
Zeb is fine but his Avenging Spider-man had immature Pete which is something we have been working to fix.Ideas were good though.
Thompson is bad imo and is spread out between way too many books to be having decent time left to give her best to this.
Ahmed writes a good Miles and should focus on that.Sales for Miles won't really be better than they are now.He is at the height of his popularity(at an average, not including temporary boosts like movies, etc.) but they are enough for sustaning him for now.
Best guess they are waiting to free someone like Zdarsky or a big name to do the solo run.

[Spiderfan001]

Well... If Peter's out, I'm out too.

I'm afraid it's the same for me.
Specially since Spencer's run has been all about building a clean slate so that next writers can do their stories with no real baggage.Killing him now is the worst possible time.
Although multiversal stuff is a part of this so it's anyones guess where this goes.
The announcement can't come soon enough.

[bob.schoonover]

You are making theories that he is lying but from what we know he isn't and they haven't addressed it in a decade and unless they do we really have no reason to believe he was lying.
Also your theories while good are also only relevant because you are making rules of your own.We know that he wants the deal for their love which is extremely rare.

It says nothing about scars on Peter's soul or seeing the future or psychic blocks.You are making stuff up from thin air and are saying something stated in canon is wrong.Your argument doesn't really have a backbone to stand one.

From what we know? About what? OMD's last chapter is just Mephisto talking. Then BND starts and OMIT kind of explains the structural changes to the timeline. That's everything we know. Does Mephisto's history suggest that he is prone to eliding over certain facts or stretching the truth in order to make a deal? Yes. Is it canon that Mephisto stated those things. Yes. Does that make his statements canon? Not even a little bit. Which is not to say it's definitely a lie - it's just that discounting that possibility w/o other information is foolish.

As to the soul - Dr Strange went to ask Mephisto about what was wrong with Peter's soul. Whatever may or may not have been originally intended by JMS/Quesada, Spencer is (so far) implying that OMD did something to Peter's soul. Call it a scar, a rend, or whatever - the current story certainly appears to be suggesting that OMD did something to Peter's soul (which may be Kindred for all we know).

As to this quote: "Also your theories while good are also only relevant because you are making rules of your own." - writing their own rules is what every writer on ASM is doing (in consultation with editorial). If Nick Spencer decided three years ago that one of those possibilities I wrote down was good, then that'll be canon by the time ASM 74 comes out.

[Spiderfan001]

From what we know? About what? OMD's last chapter is just Mephisto talking. Then BND starts and OMIT kind of explains the structural changes to the timeline. That's everything we know. Does Mephisto's history suggest that he is prone to eliding over certain facts or stretching the truth in order to make a deal? Yes. Is it canon that Mephisto stated those things. Yes. Does that make his statements canon? Not even a little bit. Which is not to say it's definitely a lie - it's just that discounting that possibility w/o other information is foolish.

As to the soul - Dr Strange went to ask Mephisto about what was wrong with Peter's soul. Whatever may or may not have been originally intended by JMS/Quesada, Spencer is (so far) implying that OMD did something to Peter's soul. Call it a scar, a rend, or whatever - the current story certainly appears to be suggesting that OMD did something to Peter's soul (which may be Kindred for all we know).

As to this quote: "Also your theories while good are also only relevant because you are making rules of your own." - writing their own rules is what every writer on ASM is doing (in consultation with editorial). If Nick Spencer decided three years ago that one of those possibilities I wrote down was good, then that'll be canon by the time ASM 74 comes out.

I agree with that.But lie or not its what we have as of today.

The original deal had nothing to do with the soul.Again I hope this is elaborated on in the future but right now its not.

Again they are writers.Their self made rules when published is ASM are part of 616 canon.Your rules and theories are just that :- theories.
If Spencer chooses to go one of those 3 routes then kudos to you for calling it but as of today you are just making stuff up and assuming things as of right now and current canon would say you are wrong.Again Mephisto could certainly lie but until we don't know we can't really say.

[Somecrazyaussie]

It's chicken-and-egg ain't it? The 2nd Clone Saga was created with the made-up problem that married Spider-Man was an issue and for the solution Kavanagh came up with the idea that the clone from ASM#149
[a]Didn't die (even if we saw the body dumped in smokestack)
[b]Was the Peter Parker of AF#15

Which amounted to deleting 20 years of Spider-Man stories (including best-selling and top-charting issues and stories) from continuity.

The poor execution of the Clone Saga derailed their intentions but that's because literally nobody stopped to think of what the story was doing.



From what I see, the marketing department was responsible for the things in the 2nd Saga that people like i.e. Ben Reilly as Peter's "brother" and best friend, the Scarlet Spider marketing and the tease of "Is Ben real" or not.

I am not sympathetic to any of the whining and complaints made by Clonistas.



They didn't.



That comes to the same thing. Ben Reilly failed as protagonist and "original Peter". He failed the purpose for which the character was created.

1. Kavanagh did come up with it (dude didn't really write anything of worth during his stint at Marvel). But DeMatteis was the one who championed it and took on Amazing BECAUSE that was in the pipeline. The Clone story wasn't concocted to get rid of the marriage (the was just one of the reasons), but rather a host of issues that writers at the time felt deviated Peter from that of the one in the late 70s and 80s.

2. They absolutely were not the ones responsible for the good points. Almost everybody involved have vented frustrations with how editors were changing decisions on a almost daily basis due to some one in marketing/accounting saying the books needed to keep the storyline going because it was selling. It was selling a crap ton. For the first few months the actual story sold. Then greed set in and they tossed every gimmick (story and publishing wise) to keep that momentùm going beyond any shred of sensible reasoning.

3. They did. Amazing #400 was going to be where Ben Reilly would be revealed to be the real Peter. Now, depending on which source you read, there was either 1. always a backdoor written into the scenario to reverse it later on (DeFalco) or 2. They were tossing all their eggs into one basket (Greenberg). I believe they were dedicated to trying to make it work, but you can clearly see they had a out for it.

Yes, but you are saying the story failed because of Ben. But it wasn't. The story itself is what brought it down. That whole saga should have been 12 months total. With the story spread across the 5 Spidey books at the time. If it had been structured like Death Of/World Without/Reign of the Supermen it would have been better remembered. Instead we ended up with something that dragged on from July 94 until December 96/January 97.

[Spiderfan001]

1. Kavanagh did come up with it (dude didn't really write anything of worth during his stint at Marvel). But DeMatteis was the one who championed it and took on Amazing BECAUSE that was in the pipeline. The Clone story wasn't concocted to get rid of the marriage (the was just one of the reasons), but rather a host of issues that writers at the time felt deviated Peter from that of the one in the late 70s and 80s.

2. They absolutely were not the ones responsible for the good points. Almost everybody involved have vented frustrations with how editors were changing decisions on a almost daily basis due to some one in marketing/accounting saying the books needed to keep the storyline going because it was selling. It was selling a crap ton. For the first few months the actual story sold. Then greed set in and they tossed every gimmick (story and publishing wise) to keep that momentùm going beyond any shred of sensible reasoning.

3. They did. Amazing #400 was going to be where Ben Reilly would be revealed to be the real Peter. Now, depending on which source you read, there was either 1. always a backdoor written into the scenario to reverse it later on (DeFalco) or 2. They were tossing all their eggs into one basket (Greenberg). I believe they were dedicated to trying to make it work, but you can clearly see they had a out for it.

Yes, but you are saying the story failed because of Ben. But it wasn't. The story itself is what brought it down. That whole saga should have been 12 months total. With the story spread across the 5 Spidey books at the time. If it had been structured like Death Of/World Without/Reign of the Supermen it would have been better remembered. Instead we ended up with something that dragged on from July 94 until December 96/January 97.

Good points.
But Ben as a concept is not a good one in general.Aside from the numerous flaws of the story he is a big part of I can't believe marvel though people would accept Ben instead of Peter.
Ben was made by marvel to have their cake and eat it to.Have a single Peter but at the same time keep the marriage intact.
It doesn't work regardless of execution but the terrible execution along with the horrible pacing just cements is as a bad story.

Also lets keep this thread focused on beyond.All this belongs in the Ben Reilly thread.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I am the same way. As for Revolutionary Jack, he really does play a large role here: why? He has an encyclopedia type knowledge of Spider-Man ( despite having opinions 180 degrees polar opposite of mine). That said, I wish he would wait and keep the political BS opinions to himself until we see what happens. What do I see? A story I referenced before A Christmas Carol. Kindred is Ghost of Christmas Future and Peter is Scrooge. All OMD is showing Peter the future if he takes the deal and Aunt May lives. That is an easy way to get rid of OMD: It never happened. I found it interesting that Aunt May appears in 874. This is my dream scenario and I hope we get it.

Having knowledge does not equate to wisdom.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Good points.
But Ben as a concept is not a good one in general.Aside from the numerous flaws of the story he is a big part of I can't believe marvel though people would accept Ben instead of Peter.
Ben was made by marvel to have their cake and eat it to.Have a single Peter but at the same time keep the marriage intact.
It doesn't work regardless of execution but the terrible execution along with the horrible pacing just cements is as a bad story.

Also lets keep this thread focused on beyond.All this belongs in the Ben Reilly thread.

I don't advocate for clones or multiple variations of characters. The conceptualization of Reilly wasn't good, but the character was likeable enough (when he first returned. Not as the blonde-haired worker at The Daily Grind).

Do I welcome Peter being replaced? No. I detest it and it seems like there is a lot of it going on with Marvel characters at the moment. In saying that, I have no idea what this is. So I can't comment either way.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

1. Kavanagh did come up with it (dude didn't really write anything of worth during his stint at Marvel).

Terry Kavanagh has been credited multiple times with the idea and has discussed it numerous times:
https://amazingspidertalk.com/2016/0...rry-kavanaugh/
https://www.eliotrbrown.com/wp/terry...-the-universe/
https://www.gamesradar.com/spider-ma...-its-creators/

But DeMatteis was the one who championed it and took on Amazing BECAUSE that was in the pipeline.

DeMatteis had a different interpretation of the material and saw it as an "Occurence in Owl Creek Story" and other headfake stories which he liked doing but he didn't stick around too long.

The Clone story wasn't concocted to get rid of the marriage (the was just one of the reasons),

It absolutely was.

but rather a host of issues that writers at the time felt deviated Peter from that of the one in the late 70s and 80s.

Nope it was the marriage they wanted to get rid off.

For the first few months the actual story sold.

The actual story never sold. The actual story is "Ben Reilly is the real Peter Parker". That story didn't sell.

I believe they were dedicated to trying to make it work, but you can clearly see they had a out for it.

They had Mary Jane get pregnant and Peter become a father. The reason that was approved was because they wanted to make it clear that Ben was the real Peter, and shuffle the one readers knew out of the story.

Yes, but you are saying the story failed because of Ben. But it wasn't. The story itself is what brought it down.

Again this is chicken-and-egg. Ben Reilly was created to negate the Peter Parker that readers loved. The story was developed around that concept. The poor execution and padding and the way Ben was introduced hampered the idea.

If it had been structured like Death Of/World Without/Reign of the Supermen it would have been better remembered.

Death of Superman was never developed with the intention of replacing Superman, nor Knightfall with the intention of Batman. Those stories had clear boundaries. The Clone Saga was actually developed with the intention of removing the Peter readers loved out of the books.

[Spiderfan001]

I don't advocate for clones or multiple variations of characters. The conceptualization of Reilly wasn't good, but the character was likeable enough (when he first returned. Not as the blonde-haired worker at The Daily Grind).

Do I welcome Peter being replaced? No. I detest it and it seems like there is a lot of it going on with Marvel characters at the moment. In saying that, I have no idea what this is. So I can't comment either way.

The character is so similar to Peter and hence is liked by many.His differences are great to but it still doesn't work better than the og.
I don't mind Peter and Ben teaming up but this doesn't look like that.

[NC_Yankee]

I don't advocate for clones or multiple variations of characters. The conceptualization of Reilly wasn't good, but the character was likeable enough (when he first returned. Not as the blonde-haired worker at The Daily Grind).

Do I welcome Peter being replaced? No. I detest it and it seems like there is a lot of it going on with Marvel characters at the moment. In saying that, I have no idea what this is. So I can't comment either way.

Here is something overlooked. Peter is only being replaced temporarily ( I will guess for an arc ( unlike say Superior)). Why? 1: Peter was killed and replaced quite recently and does Marvel really want to go a year ( or until Amazing 900) again? 2: IF OMD goes away ( and again this is a BIG IF) then two things must happen. 1: Aunt May must die. 2: The General Public learns Peter is Spider-Man. For Ben Reilly purposes this is more important. Why? When JJJ exposes Peter as Spider-Man, Ben can come around and this will allow Peter the opportunity to say I am not Spider-Man and when the heat is off, resume being Spider-Man. At the same time, it allows Peter to fix what needs to be fixed: Head, relationships, financial situation and get his PhD.