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  1. #151
    Extraordinary Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    Chiming in way into this thread. Saw the promo pieces in my feed yesterday afternoon and into the night. But keeping a 4yr old and 1yr old fed and bathed doesn't allow me evening internet time. A glance at my phone here and there. The Ben fan in me has been tweaked. As an OG clone saga reader I was going to keep reading(and did) Ben as Spider-man and see Peter off into the sunset. I'm the type of fan who also didn't care Mulder was leaving, his story wrapped with his sister, great I'm here for paranormal but too many other folks just get hung up on a character. Spider-man was moving(in the 90s) Beyond(wink) just being about Peter and at this point the concept of Spider-man is more than Peter. In the 90s you had Miguel shining in 2099, Spider-girl(Mayday) leading a book in MC2 and Venom maturing into his own.

    Ben as Spider-man was great, it was the re-invention of some classic foe concepts that failed. True, you have to mention how sales took a dip but the crashed after OMD making Ben/Spidey sales look awesome by comparison. I've heard the Wally West comparison and for me that doesn't stick. I've heard Jason Todd and until Clone Conspiracy that didn't work but it tilts that way a bit now. For me Ben/Spidey is more along the lines of Jean Paul Valley AzBats or John Walker Captain America. Two characters I also like but my dissertation is running long.

    My favorite Spider-Men after Peter are:
    1. Ben
    2. Miguel
    3. Doc Ock Superior SM
    4. Miles
    "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Here is something overlooked. Peter is only being replaced temporarily ( I will guess for an arc ( unlike say Superior)). Why? 1: Peter was killed and replaced quite recently and does Marvel really want to go a year ( or until Amazing 900) again? 2: IF OMD goes away ( and again this is a BIG IF) then two things must happen. 1: Aunt May must die. 2: The General Public learns Peter is Spider-Man. For Ben Reilly purposes this is more important. Why? When JJJ exposes Peter as Spider-Man, Ben can come around and this will allow Peter the opportunity to say I am not Spider-Man and when the heat is off, resume being Spider-Man. At the same time, it allows Peter to fix what needs to be fixed: Head, relationships, financial situation and get his PhD.
    The identity thing was done by strange in continuity.
    I hope they don't try to undo that.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Craig View Post
    Chiming in way into this thread. Saw the promo pieces in my feed yesterday afternoon and into the night. But keeping a 4yr old and 1yr old fed and bathed doesn't allow me evening internet time. A glance at my phone here and there. The Ben fan in me has been tweaked. As an OG clone saga reader I was going to keep reading(and did) Ben as Spider-man and see Peter off into the sunset. I'm the type of fan who also didn't care Mulder was leaving, his story wrapped with his sister, great I'm here for paranormal but too many other folks just get hung up on a character. Spider-man was moving(in the 90s) Beyond(wink) just being about Peter and at this point the concept of Spider-man is more than Peter. In the 90s you had Miguel shining in 2099, Spider-girl(Mayday) leading a book in MC2 and Venom maturing into his own.

    Ben as Spider-man was great, it was the re-invention of some classic foe concepts that failed. True, you have to mention how sales took a dip but the crashed after OMD making Ben/Spidey sales look awesome by comparison. I've heard the Wally West comparison and for me that doesn't stick. I've heard Jason Todd and until Clone Conspiracy that didn't work but it tilts that way a bit now. For me Ben/Spidey is more along the lines of Jean Paul Valley AzBats or John Walker Captain America. Two characters I also like but my dissertation is running long.

    My favorite Spider-Men after Peter are:
    1. Ben
    2. Miguel
    3. Doc Ock Superior SM
    4. Miles
    Best of luck with kids btw.
    Also great list.
    I would say mine has 1)Spider-man(the one and only Peter Parker)
    2)Miguel
    3)Kaine
    4)Ben
    5)Ock Spidey but only vol 2(vol 1 was trying to sleep with her MJ, reminder he is was married to May so the agre gap itself is gross ,in Pete's body no less, also when rejected went through Pete's private memories to rub one off and had terrible character growth. The second one had much better character work as well )

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Everybody knows that, even the original poster, who didn't even want to argue that point.


    DeMatteis had a different interpretation of the material and saw it as an "Occurence in Owl Creek Story" and other headfake stories which he liked doing but he didn't stick around too long.
    DeMatteis saw it as a big opportunity and was the most enthusiastic of the lot. He was also up for giving Peter what he felt was a deserved "ride into the sunset" ending.

    It absolutely was.
    (Sigh) The clone saga was concocted simply because writers were asked to do a similar story to the death of Superman, because that story had sold well. You can check many of the interviews where Kavanagh is credited with the idea. The marriage was just another factor into the equation.


    The actual story never sold. The actual story is "Ben Reilly is the real Peter Parker". That story didn't sell.
    The ending of a story is not the story. Take Lost, for example.


    They had Mary Jane get pregnant and Peter become a father. The reason that was approved was because they wanted to make it clear that Ben was the real Peter, and shuffle the one readers knew out of the story.
    True. So what? Besides, after CS, Defalco wanted their daughter to be found in 616, but he didn't have it his way.

    Again this is chicken-and-egg. Ben Reilly was created to negate the Peter Parker that readers loved. The story was developed around that concept. The poor execution and padding and the way Ben was introduced hampered the idea.
    People in general liked Ben's CHARACTER and personality. You can like a character even if it's created just for REASONS you don't like. Editorial Vs In Universe. A good writer can transcend and obliterate those reasons.

    Death of Superman was never developed with the intention of replacing Superman, nor Knightfall with the intention of Batman. Those stories had clear boundaries. The Clone Saga was actually developed with the intention of removing the Peter readers loved out of the books.
    It's hard to argue it would have been better remembered if it was written better, despite keeping the outcome unchanged.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Here is something overlooked. Peter is only being replaced temporarily ( I will guess for an arc ( unlike say Superior)). Why? 1: Peter was killed and replaced quite recently and does Marvel really want to go a year ( or until Amazing 900) again? 2: IF OMD goes away ( and again this is a BIG IF) then two things must happen. 1: Aunt May must die. 2: The General Public learns Peter is Spider-Man. For Ben Reilly purposes this is more important. Why? When JJJ exposes Peter as Spider-Man, Ben can come around and this will allow Peter the opportunity to say I am not Spider-Man and when the heat is off, resume being Spider-Man. At the same time, it allows Peter to fix what needs to be fixed: Head, relationships, financial situation and get his PhD.
    As much as I love this, your last sentence is why it won’t happen. Peter cannot succeed. Ever. If he succeeded, we the fans will not be able to relate to him and that destroys the character 🙄

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    As much as I love this, your last sentence is why it won’t happen. Peter cannot succeed. Ever. If he succeeded, we the fans will not be able to relate to him and that destroys the character ��
    You are wrong about this.
    Him being successfull is better because we have seen the struggle.If he is never succesfull then it sends a terrible message that people who struggle never succedd.
    Also it's not like he still can't struggle.He will still have problems.Just new ones.
    He may get a good job someone may try to steal his work or take credit etc.
    It's not about removing the problems it about replacing them.
    Also the entire point of him struggling is that when he wins its all the more sweet.
    I heard this somewhere where they said that because Peter looses in 3 issues its all the better to see him succedd in the 4th.
    That's the point.People keep forgetting about the winning.The constant loosing was something Slott started and lets let it end with Him off the title.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    As much as I love this, your last sentence is why it won’t happen. Peter cannot succeed. Ever. If he succeeded, we the fans will not be able to relate to him and that destroys the character 🙄
    I do not agree. Why? Here is one example:,Keep in mind Peter ended up with the hot girl ( aka MJ), this is something that rich Harry could not do. Even beyond MJ he went from a geek with glasses in Amazing Fantasy 15 to a chick magnet: Betty, Gwen ( Original), Carlie, Cindy, Felicia and quite a few others besides MJ. Even those who he did not date wanted him like Jean and Liz. Yet he is still relatable. The “Charlie Brown loser” and the Damsel In Distress are the things unacceptable.

  8. #158
    Extraordinary Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Best of luck with kids btw.
    Also great list.
    I would say mine has 1)Spider-man(the one and only Peter Parker)
    2)Miguel
    3)Kaine
    4)Ben
    5)Ock Spidey but only vol 2(vol 1 was trying to sleep with her MJ, reminder he is was married to May so the agre gap itself is gross ,in Pete's body no less, also when rejected went through Pete's private memories to rub one off and had terrible character growth. The second one had much better character work as well )
    Thanks, kids are fun but challenging. Hence why a Peter married with kids is a draw. Peter in HS worked at his creation cause the main audience was kids/teens. Peter in College worked cause in Bronze Age audience was still largely HS aged readers. The tonal mishap of 90s Clone Saga was that comics had moved beyond "kiddie books with a direct market. The new larger audience reading monthly legacy Spiderman titles were adults, facing the adult challenges in ways not really handled by the other adult heroes. That is one reason getting rid of Peter was a calculated mistake.

    Also, was Kaine ever actually a Spider-man. I know his Scarlet Spider stint but as Spider-man? That's why he's not in my list and Peter is always #1 hence my list starts with the #1 character after Peter I prefer as Spider-man.
    "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

  9. #159
    Astonishing Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    As much as I love this, your last sentence is why it won’t happen. Peter cannot succeed. Ever. If he succeeded, we the fans will not be able to relate to him and that destroys the character ��
    Define what you mean by "succeed" before saying Peter can never succeed. In my mind he succeeds very frequently and also loses very frequently. It depends on the story and what you are talking about. Success isn't just one thing. Life is not you succeeded at life and you are done...that is subjective.... and not until you are dead can you say that... as long as you are alive, you will continue to have successes and failures.
    Last edited by Vortex85; 06-24-2021 at 07:53 AM.

  10. #160
    Astonishing Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    At the same time, it allows Peter to fix what needs to be fixed: Head, relationships, financial situation and get his PhD.
    Peter may fix his head... for a while... until some new problem screws it up in a new way.
    Peter may fix his relationships with some people.... while other relationships will be screwed up or not be as good as they could be...
    Peter may fix his financial situation but you can still have problems while having money....
    Peter may get his PHD but it may not do him any good.....

    Peter can succeed in many ways... but he will always have new problems to deal with... otherwise the book would get boring fast if everything is "fixed"

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I do not agree. Why? Here is one example:,Keep in mind Peter ended up with the hot girl ( aka MJ), this is something that rich Harry could not do. Even beyond MJ he went from a geek with glasses in Amazing Fantasy 15 to a chick magnet: Betty, Gwen ( Original), Carlie, Cindy, Felicia and quite a few others besides MJ. Even those who he did not date wanted him like Jean and Liz. Yet he is still relatable. The “Charlie Brown loser” and the Damsel In Distress are the things unacceptable.
    Here is the problem. This right here. Fans on this board complain that "Spider-Man isn't allowed to grow and change." But in the past ten years whenever there has been a growth or a change, you guys complain about it. He grew and changed when he started at Horizon. "No, not like that." He grew and changed when he built up Parker Industries after taking his body back from Doc Ock. "No, not like that." He grew and changed when he became a mentor for a growing number of younger Spider-heroes, like Miles and Gwen. "No, not like that."

    When people here say that Peter isn't allowed to "grow and change" that is code speak for "He needs to be married to Mary Jane." And how does that show growth and change? Well, it actually doesn't, not necessarily.

    "We want him to grow and change to the way he was from 1988 to 2008" isn't a call for growth and change. It's a call for things to go back to the way they were. Which is fine. All fans have their preferred eras and status quos. But to couch it in terms of "we only want growth and change" is not accurate.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shunt View Post
    The ending of a story is not the story.
    I wasn't talking about the ending of the Clone Saga. Ben being the real Peter actually happened in the midpoint of the Clone Saga.

    The end of the saga was Norman coming back from the death. Funny thing is that Norman's resurrection was opposed by damn near everyone who spearheaded the story, they felt it would undo a classic story. The hypocrisy is just hilarious isn't it, these guys wanted to torpedo decades of continuity complaining about something that, compared to what they had done, was a minor retcon in comparison.

    And of course Norman's resurrection is the major lasting positive legacy of the Clone Saga and it wasn't something any of the Clonistas wanted.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJT View Post
    Here is the problem. This right here. Fans on this board complain that "Spider-Man isn't allowed to grow and change." But in the past ten years whenever there has been a growth or a change, you guys complain about it.
    Becoming a CEO of a corporation (which he didn't create) isn't growth and change.

    He grew and changed when he started at Horizon.
    He worked at a science company before -- Garid, and Tricorp. It was not any new thing.

    He grew and changed when he became a mentor for a growing number of younger Spider-heroes, like Miles and Gwen.
    616 Peter has never truly been a mentor to Miles.

    When people here say that Peter isn't allowed to "grow and change" that is code speak for "He needs to be married to Mary Jane."
    That's how Marvel Editorial has framed it. The writers and editors themselves don't consider Peter working at Horizon or starting his company as growth or change.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 06-24-2021 at 08:01 AM.

  13. #163
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Nevermind.

    Ben Reilly is the best.

    -Pav, who can't wait to find out more...
    You were Spider-Man then. You and Peter had agreed on it. But he came back right when you started feeling comfortable.
    You know what it means when he comes back
    .

    "You're not the better one, Peter. You're just older."
    --------------------
    Closet full of comics? Consider donating to my school! DM for details

  14. #164
    Astonishing Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Peter can grow and change.
    He is permanently out of high school, he's not going back, for example.

    He could potentially permanently get out of college though they have still found ways to keep sending him back but PHD is really the end. However, in life you can always have training and classes for jobs so you can have a learning type setting forever really....

    In most ways Marvel will try to keep a liquid status quo.

    However, on married vs. single, both are proven states Peter has been in for long periods that work for the character while the rest of his life changes around that. I could see marriage being more acceptable these days for Peter since it would differentiate him from other single Spider heroes like Ben, Miles, and Gwen.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    He could potentially permanently get out of college
    Peter has graduated from college in the Wolfman era. What he is in, is grad school. Grad school is students trying to pursue degrees and people have done that over long stretches of their lives.

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