Spider-Man Beyond

[Vortex85]

Peter has graduated from college in the Wolfman era. What he is in, is grad school. Grad school is students trying to pursue degrees and people have done that over long stretches of their lives.

Yes that's true, I guess I mistook grad school as an extended form of college. But it is true, he has completed bachelor's degree so he is done with that era and not going back.

[Shunt]

I wasn't talking about the ending of the Clone Saga. Ben being the real Peter actually happened in the midpoint of the Clone Saga.

The end of the saga was Norman coming back from the death. Funny thing is that Norman's resurrection was opposed by damn near everyone who spearheaded the story, they felt it would undo a classic story. The hypocrisy is just hilarious isn't it, these guys wanted to torpedo decades of continuity complaining about something that, compared to what they had done, was a minor retcon in comparison.

And of course Norman's resurrection is the major lasting positive legacy of the Clone Saga and it wasn't something any of the Clonistas wanted.

It's funny how omitting the adjective "intended" before the noun "ending" makes way for another point of debate. I thought of including it, but thought it wasn't necessary because everybody would get the point was in some entirely different place. It seems I was wrong.

It's also funny how you want to have your cake and eat it: if the ending of the clone saga is Norman coming back from the death, then the clone saga story is not "Ben Reilly is the real Spider-Man" (and yes, things change if you put another "intended" there).

[NC_Yankee]

Here is the problem. This right here. Fans on this board complain that "Spider-Man isn't allowed to grow and change." But in the past ten years whenever there has been a growth or a change, you guys complain about it. He grew and changed when he started at Horizon. "No, not like that." He grew and changed when he built up Parker Industries after taking his body back from Doc Ock. "No, not like that." He grew and changed when he became a mentor for a growing number of younger Spider-heroes, like Miles and Gwen. "No, not like that."

When people here say that Peter isn't allowed to "grow and change" that is code speak for "He needs to be married to Mary Jane." And how does that show growth and change? Well, it actually doesn't, not necessarily.

"We want him to grow and change to the way he was from 1988 to 2008" isn't a call for growth and change. It's a call for things to go back to the way they were. Which is fine. All fans have their preferred eras and status quos. But to couch it in terms of "we only want growth and change" is not accurate.

I used the example of the women to rebut the charge that Peter is not relatable if he is not a loser. Let’s try this another way ( a comparison I used before). I am a huge fan of the Yankees, Islanders and Arizona State Sun Devils. I do not watch to see them lose and remain stagnant. The same applies to ASM. I do not read the comic to see Peter get his ass kicked, be disrespected or other negative stuff. I understand he cannot always win. Some of the greatest stories have him losing ( starting with Amazing Fantasy 15). But always losing? No thank you. As for MJ I am a fan. Why? She is a great character and has been ever since ASM 122. Certain writers and editors do not like her ( not just the Slott, Wacker and Quesada team), that even goes back to Romita and Lee. But she lives on. Why? She is a great character and the fans know it and love her. It is that simple

[Vortex85]

I'm going to fix and repost from earlier and bold the part I wanted to draw attention to ...

Peter can grow and change.
He is permanently out of high school, he's not going back, for example.

He is permanently get out of college with a bachelor's degree, he is done with that era.

Yes, he is now in grad school, but he could potentially get a PHD and be done with that too.

However, in life you can always have training and classes for jobs so you can have a learning type setting forever really....

In most ways Marvel will try to keep a liquid status quo.

However, on married vs. single, both are proven states Peter has been in for long periods that work for the character while the rest of his life changes around that. I could see marriage being more acceptable these days for Peter since it would differentiate him from other single Spider heroes like Ben, Miles, and Gwen.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It's funny how omitting the adjective "intended" before the noun "ending" makes way for another point of debate.

Given how fast and quick people post and respond here, it's always better to include as many qualifiers as possible.

It seems I was wrong.

It's also funny how you want to have your cake and eat it: if the ending of the clone saga is Norman coming back from the death,

It IS the ending. No "ifs" about it.

...then the clone saga story is not "Ben Reilly is the real Spider-Man" (and yes, things change if you put another "intended" there).

I have always discussed the Clone Saga as it was published. And my point and argument has always been about the Saga as it entered the pages -- where the original intentions always clashed with its incoherent, incompetent, and paradoxical execution.

The Saga was a complex failure:
-- It wasn't directed by a single writer. Different writers and editors had different attitudes to the story and what it meant.
-- The editors and others who started with the saga weren't there all the way through the end.
-- The padding and stretching of the story by marketing and so on contributed to giving mixed messages.
-- The original idea and concept - negating 20 years of continuity by stating that it didn't happen to the Peter of AF#15 - was never gonna work with Spider-Man given the success and esteem of the stories they were putting into the grinder.

It's not that the Clone Saga was a good story poorly executed, it's that it was a bad story incompetently executed. And that incompetence is actually responsible for some of the stuff people like about the Clone Saga.

The idea of replacing the character readers knew by negating it into an impostor could have worked in theory. It did with Captain America after all, and also around the same time, Tom Defalco/Ron Frenz negated the controversial Johnny Storm/Alicia Masters marriage by making that into a Skrull impostor Lyja because the story (ironically done by Roger Stern) of Johnny marrying Alicia never sat well with fans or others who saw Alicia as a love-interest Lee-Kirby developed for Ben Grimm. So it worked. It comes down to a referendum -- between single unmarried Peter and married Peter, and audiences chose the latter.

When Lee-Kirby and Defalco-Frenz negated stories and characters they had a good solid idea of how much fans would be on their side for what they were doing. Whereas reality was quite absent from the considerations of the Clonistas.

[xpyred]

When I said Peter cannot succeed, I mean I’m terms of the obvious. Yes he has the “hot” girl, but Marvel took her away a number of times in stupid fashion. A few examples being when they had her “die” in the plane explosion in issue 13 of Volume 2 and then when she returned, she left Peter again because of PSTD and of course the BND era where we saw MJ with that actor and Peter with Black Cat and Carlie Cooper. Yeah those women are “hot” in their own ways too but Marvel wanted to completely remove Mj numerous times.

Does Peter have a stable job? No because Marvel thinks he works better struggling for money and suffering.

Does Peter have a stable apartment? No. See above.

Marvel believes that without these, he’s more relatable. Therefore, in my opinion, he will never succeed.

[Vortex85]

When I said Peter cannot succeed, I mean I’m terms of the obvious. Yes he has the “hot” girl, but Marvel took her away a number of times in stupid fashion. A few examples being when they had her “die” in the plane explosion in issue 13 of Volume 2 and then when she returned, she left Peter again because of PSTD and of course the BND era where we saw MJ with that actor and Peter with Black Cat and Carlie Cooper. Yeah those women are “hot” in their own ways too but Marvel wanted to completely remove Mj numerous times.

Does Peter have a stable job? No because Marvel thinks he works better struggling for money and suffering.

Does Peter have a stable apartment? No. See above.

Marvel believes that without these, he’s more relatable. Therefore, in my opinion, he will never succeed.

Marvel will always give and take away from Peter in some ways.

However, in other ways they have given and not taken away. Peter successfully graduated high school, he successfully got his bachelor's degree and they have not reverted him back to those previous status quos. For some years during the marriage era, he was successfully married (they did not start trying to remove it until 1995) so about 7 years that was a "permanent" success and then they went back and forth on it.

I know Marvel have been dead set on keeping Peter single for decade, but things may change now with the popularity of other Spider heroes. They may recognize that variety is good and maybe Peter can be married if we have a lot of other Spider heroes in the line that are not.

[Celgress]

Looks like it is

Ben to replace Peter while he marries MJ hopefully.

Still think we can have Married Spider-Man now that Miles is the young single Spider-Man.

Haven't I seen this happen somewhere before? Hmmm, I wonder where and why do I keep thinking about when I was a kid in the 1990s? odd...

[Celgress]

Ben Reilly is proof positive to how no matter how the wallet votes, a white male character will keep getting second chances over those who have proven themselves.....

I like Ben and all but you make a valid point. Further evidence comes from DC/Warner's shenanigans with Superman in which a glorified copy is taking the mantel rather than a more interesting (e.g. original) option (of which there are several available). IMO, this move (if it is indeed so) smacks of Editorial wanting a Spider-Man unencumbered by perceived historical "baggage" (the romance with MJ and his relationships with other characters) so they can youth up the product while keeping Spider-Man as close to the original (first ten years) Peter Parker as possible.

[Spiderfan001]

I like Ben and all but you make a valid point. Further evidence comes from DC/Warner's shenanigans with Superman in which a glorified copy is taking the mantel rather than a more interesting (e.g. original) option (of which there are several available). IMO, this move (if it is indeed so) smacks of Editorial wanting a Spider-Man unencumbered historical "baggage".

Agreed.
But the entire point of Spencers run is to clean the slate for the next writer.
Doing this now makes no sense.

[Celgress]

A stark point, even if I still have a soft spot for the character. Marvel might just be thinking, "Third time's the charm," although I'm thinking what motivates Marvel to keep trying with Ben Reilly is that he technically is "Peter Parker," only without what certain people at Marvel see as the "baggage" of Peter's marriage to/relationship with Mary Jane Watson and having gotten "too old" for the readership/fandom to still find "relatable." To put it another way, maybe, those people still labor under the ideal that if they could reset Peter Parker to before he got married (and perhaps before he graduated college or even high school), they would be spinning gold with him to this day.

Bingo, bingo, friend, well put. I'm all but certain that is what is going on here, which (if true) is sad if not pathetic.

You know what they say about the definition of insanity.....

[Vortex85]

On the other hand guys, Ben Reilly is the single Spider-Man editorial wanted in the 90s while still having Peter and MJ married. Maybe this time they have a way to give us a married Spider-Man book with Peter and a single Spider-Man book with Ben. If you want Peter to be married, maybe buy and support Ben Reilly, LOL.

It's possible they realize Peter has too much baggage with MJ that other relationships are always going to fall flat, so instead of forcing Peter to be single, reintroduce Ben to have a single version of Peter who can have meaningful relationships that will actually work and fans can believe in, and have Peter and MJ be together like fans believe they should be.

[Spiderfan001]

On the other hand guys, Ben Reilly is the single Spider-Man editorial wanted in the 90s while still having Peter and MJ married. Maybe this time they have a way to give us a married Spider-Man book with Peter and a single Spider-Man book with Ben. If you want Peter to be married, maybe buy and support Ben Reilly, LOL.

That's just messed up.
Why the hell would we support 2 books to sustain one.
If anything we need to buy more of the married Spidey book to show marvel that it will sell.

[Vortex85]

That's just messed up.
Why the hell would we support 2 books to sustain one.
If anything we need to buy more of the married Spidey book to show marvel that it will sell.

Marvel want to give writers the ability to write single Spider-Man stories but the problem is those relationships feel fake to fans. They can't do it with Peter in a convincing way anymore. Ben Reilly is their only hope.

[Spiderfan001]

Marvel want to give writers the ability to write single Spider-Man stories but the problem is those relationships feel fake to fans. They can't do it with Peter in a convincing way anymore. Ben Reilly is their only hope.

What relationships?
Also I don't mind buying Ben but why buying it so that I can read married spidey makes no sense.
We have like 10 different Spider-people that are single.