Spider-Man Beyond

[HypnoHustler]

The Ben memory thing was actually addressed during the clone saga. He had updated memories implanted while both him and Peter were knocked out at Shea Stadium. Like a software update. If you can accept age-accelerated adult clones of superheroes then it’s not too much of a stretch.

[bob.schoonover]

Spidercide, yes. Traveller? No. He was so far outside the Spidey wheelhouse first time around it was jarring. So much so they had to revise him later on to be Psychologist who had a mental breakdown and this triggered the ability to cause illusions. Which is all he had. But originally? He was supposed to be a quasi-mystical being walking the earth to study good vs evil.

I think, at the time of his first appearance, you'd have a more compelling point than now. Between the Web of Life and Death, the Inheritors, Mephisto, and Kindred*, Traveller is no longer that far afield from other Spidey stories that occur somewhat regularly. It's obviously fine if you like none of that stuff in your Spider-man stories, but it's common enough.

As to Traveller specifically, I think a re-retcon (de-retcon?) back to his original premise could be valuable, generally, as a Marvel character, maybe as a less important version of The Watcher or someone in a grey area of magic. I think he'd also be valuable in Spider-man right now with Kindred - he'd have a unique interest and perspective on what Peter is going through and being done to him. One could imagine Traveller being helpful to Peter in getting his brain right after this is all over (the way Lady Shiva righted Bruce during Knightsend or The Question helped Huntress or Renee Montoya during Rucka's run - not necessarily fixing them the way either planned, but providing a new outlook).

*I'll take it for granted that we're ignoring all the times Spidey is a bit player in cosmic events both before and after Clone Saga 2.

[Somecrazyaussie]

It was stated from the very beginning of the second clone saga (ie, the accompanying story that came in flip book form) that Parker memories were implanted in Ben well after he was created. Kaine didn't even had them in the first place, and both clone and original got memories of waking in a vat (albeit in a dormant form), implying Warren had the technology of extracting memories from one subject and implanting them into another, leaving aside the creation of false "de novo" memories. How and when they were implanted was never perfectly clarified, but it's very plausible Warren implanted the final "batch" of memories in Ben when both him and Peter they were unconscious, right before their first figt. There are way more blatant continuity issues than that, I think.

This.

It was never stated in the original story by Conway (because he intended for that to be the final word on it). But the second Clone Saga DID explain how Ben did have Peter's memories as The Jackal had a machine to implant memories and so forth. The Jackal studied Peter and kept tabs on him endlessly and whatever he didn't have access to he got given to him by Osborn and his network.

They needed a explanation as people raised how Ben could fall for Janine/Elizabeth (a red head) in The Lost Years, when supposedly he shouldn't have as he was cloned from a sample when Peter still had feelings for Gwen.

The Jackal was also accomplished with brainwashing too. He had that Gwen Clone out in the suburbs he was married too and her memories were false! (Web #125 I think that story was in).

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The Ben memory thing was actually addressed during the clone saga. He had updated memories implanted while both him and Peter were knocked out at Shea Stadium. Like a software update. If you can accept age-accelerated adult clones of superheroes then it’s not too much of a stretch.

This.

It was never stated in the original story by Conway (because he intended for that to be the final word on it). But the second Clone Saga DID explain how Ben did have Peter's memories as The Jackal had a machine to implant memories and so forth. The Jackal studied Peter and kept tabs on him endlessly and whatever he didn't have access to he got given to him by Osborn and his network.

They needed a explanation as people raised how Ben could fall for Janine/Elizabeth (a red head) in The Lost Years, when supposedly he shouldn't have as he was cloned from a sample when Peter still had feelings for Gwen.

The Jackal was also accomplished with brainwashing too. He had that Gwen Clone out in the suburbs he was married too and her memories were false! (Web #125 I think that story was in).

Ultimately the problem is one of credibility i.e. the Jackal/Miles Warren simply is a terribly designed villain (and he was by intention, by Conway) who fails to convince a majority of readership that he actually does the things he's supposed to do. So the writers have to do legwork and constantly tell people to make it so, and that just doesn't work because the readers still aren't convinced by explanations. For instance, the revelation that Norman Osborn was behind the 2nd Clone Saga doesn't need much convincing or doubts because you go, "Ah...Norman, totally makes sense". You don't need too many explanations as to how Doctor Octopus actually gets and finds the metals and stuff he needs to do his mad scientist schemes because the way Ditko designed him, he has credibility as a villain.

Miles Warren is a hack ESU professor who somehow made the biggest biological discovery since Darwin while having night dreams about a blonde co-ed. That itself is a major problem because he's far too close to real-life accessible evil to be a supervillain. Mr. "Would Totally be MeToo'd in real life" did this after Gwen died because that's when the story decided he needed to be a villain or for Conway, the incarnation of all the crazy fans who sent him death threats (which he got revenge by personifying them as a creepy old necrophiliac). Then he created not just clones of Spider-Man but perfect clones of Spider-Man, then he was able to somehow siphon and steal memories to keep his clones up-to-date and in keeping with the original, then he faked his death and then he organized all these schemes and plots because he's that manipulative and a planner who thinks of anything. Warren was so smart and evil and diabolical his several decades as a civilian professor just doesn't make sense. Conway nipped that in the bud with the Spectacular Annual story that made it like Warren didn't create clones but actually tortured regular people into becoming human subjects, that's on the level of believable mad science and if they continued with that part it might have been better. But then the Clonistas retconned that too.

And before people go, it's comics and genre fiction. Well there's good comics and there's bad comics right? There's good genre fiction and bad genre fiction. There's believable mad science and unbelievable mad science. It's an insult to good science fiction writers from Mary Shelley to Ursula K. LeGuin to Philip K. Dick to claim there are no standards and anything goes since the good writers went to great lengths and effort to make their creations distinct and memorable and compelling. That's my frustration with the 2nd Clone Saga in general and its legacy. To accept even a part of it, you have to lower norms and standards. It retcons and overturns better written and better constructed stories and substitutes poorly written and poorly constructed stories and somehow the latter has to prevail over the former, bad writing has to win over good writing. That's profoundly unfair and sad, and that's just never going to sit right, and it will always be a problem. The kind of stuff that goes with the 2nd Clone Saga would never fly in any other relative and proportionate example in any other comic or genre storytelling. It's a bit like fans of Alien franchise being made to treat Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection as seriously as the first two Aliens films.

I know there are people who like Ben Reilly and aspects of that time...to reiterate Sturgeon's Law cuts both ways, not everything before the 2nd Clone Saga was great, and not everything during (and after) the 2nd Clone Saga was bad, yet for the rest of us persistently having to deal with the 2nd Clone Saga and all its stupidity is a constant chore and persistent sore.

[HypnoHustler]

I know there are people who like Ben Reilly and aspects of that time...to reiterate Sturgeon's Law cuts both ways, not everything before the 2nd Clone Saga was great, and not everything during (and after) the 2nd Clone Saga was bad, yet for the rest of us persistently having to deal with the 2nd Clone Saga and all its stupidity is a constant chore and persistent sore.

I don't know. Seeing as you're the most active poster in this thread, you seem to relish "dealing" with it.

[Spiderfan001]

I agree with Jack here.
I read through all 800+ issues after reading a bit of Spencers run and clone saga was one of the worst.
But the fact that the second one keep coming back is annoying af.
I haven't read the last 2 pages because it's all clones stuff.
Imagine how new readers will feel when all this is dumped on them in the comics.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't know. Seeing as you're the most active poster in this thread, you seem to relish "dealing" with it.

Real talk

I don't like complaining about the Clone Saga or complaining about anything. I am being sincere when I say that. You may or may not accept that, but it happens to be the truth.

Merely typing or posting stuff doesn't mean I "relish" anything. If I did I would have posted on the Ben Reilly Appreciation Thread and I have not a made a single post there either before or now. I know for a fact because there's no green marker next to it on my profile display which indicates threads where you have made posts and keeps track.

The fact is that this upcoming announcement of Spider-Man Beyond is addressed to and engages people who aren't fans of Ben Reilly and for this comic to have hopes of commercial and artistic success it has to engage and deal with people who feel differently about the 2nd Clone Saga than those who knew Ben Reilly growing up in the 90s (which doesn't include me).

As such I, and others here, are within our rights, and in keeping with this thread, to express frustrations about the legacy and this announcement.

[Digifiend]

Miles Warren is a hack ESU professor who somehow made the biggest biological discovery since Darwin while having night dreams about a blonde co-ed. That itself is a major problem because he's far too close to real-life accessible evil to be a supervillain. Mr. "Would Totally be MeToo'd in real life"

Yeah, that's true, his obsession with Gwen would at the very least get him fired.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yeah, that's true, his obsession with Gwen would at the very least get him fired.

The real problem is that this motivation and drive, which is inseparable from Warren makes the guy dysfunctional as a comic supervillain who are there to entertain. And comic villains entertain by primarily being remote and removed from evil that is accessible to the general reader.

Green Goblin killing Gwen Stacy by knocking her off a bridge is something that's been sentimentalized and romanticized partly because it's a style of murder so remote from real-life. You can make Alex Ross covers of Goblin and Gwen framed in Spider-Man's eye in a sinister romantic style (https://www.chasingamazingblog.com/w...vels_cover.jpg) but in real life you can't put posters of Charles Manson and Sharon Tate in a similar style, or you know the Columbine Killers next to victims. If you were to treat real-life villains and criminals the way it's done in comics, you would be seen as perverse, gross, insensitive to say the least. But because the Green Goblin is an entertaining character in the comics, i.e. his gimmick, and the overall style, and the intensity of his battles with Spider-Man and again the remoteness of the situation of a dude dropping a blonde girl of a bridge as opposed to someone wearing a goblin mask and killing people in a school shooting...gives it a grand high operatic style.

In the case of Warren, creepy professors perving on students is the kind of institutional abuse that's accessible and familiar as opposed to being remote, and that's one of the major reasons (aside of course from bad costume, nonsensical moniker, and just poor design all around) that Warren fails as a serialized comic villain. He fails to entertain.

[Agent Z]

Real talk

I don't like complaining about the Clone Saga or complaining about anything. I am being sincere when I say that. You may or may not accept that, but it happens to be the truth.

Merely typing or posting stuff doesn't mean I "relish" anything. If I did I would have posted on the Ben Reilly Appreciation Thread and I have not a made a single post there either before or now. I know for a fact because there's no green marker next to it on my profile display which indicates threads where you have made posts and keeps track.

The fact is that this upcoming announcement of Spider-Man Beyond is addressed to and engages people who aren't fans of Ben Reilly and for this comic to have hopes of commercial and artistic success it has to engage and deal with people who feel differently about the 2nd Clone Saga than those who knew Ben Reilly growing up in the 90s (which doesn't include me).

As such I, and others here, are within our rights, and in keeping with this thread, to express frustrations about the legacy and this announcement.

This comic is aimed at people who would be interested in buying a comic starring Ben Reilly, which includes those who have probably never even heard of him. It is not aimed at anyone who hates him not does it have to engage with anyone who dislikes the character as they have more than likely made up their mind about Ben already. If people who hated Ben end up liking the character because of this new direction that would be great, but it doesn't mean it was the main goal.

At some point, a person crosses the line from "expressing frustration" to obnoxious, borderline troll behavior.

[Agent Z]

Yeah, that's true, his obsession with Gwen would at the very least get him fired.

Not if he was good at keeping it a secret. The only people who seemed to know where Norman and Peter and in the latter's case, he only knew because the Jackal told him.

[Agent Z]

The real problem is that this motivation and drive, which is inseparable from Warren makes the guy dysfunctional as a comic supervillain who are there to entertain. And comic villains entertain by primarily being remote and removed from evil that is accessible to the general reader.

Green Goblin killing Gwen Stacy by knocking her off a bridge is something that's been sentimentalized and romanticized partly because it's a style of murder so remote from real-life. You can make Alex Ross covers of Goblin and Gwen framed in Spider-Man's eye in a sinister romantic style (https://www.chasingamazingblog.com/w...vels_cover.jpg) but in real life you can't put posters of Charles Manson and Sharon Tate in a similar style, or you know the Columbine Killers next to victims. If you were to treat real-life villains and criminals the way it's done in comics, you would be seen as perverse, gross, insensitive to say the least. But because the Green Goblin is an entertaining character in the comics, i.e. his gimmick, and the overall style, and the intensity of his battles with Spider-Man and again the remoteness of the situation of a dude dropping a blonde girl of a bridge as opposed to someone wearing a goblin mask and killing people in a school shooting...gives it a grand high operatic style.

In the case of Warren, creepy professors perving on students is the kind of institutional abuse that's accessible and familiar as opposed to being remote, and that's one of the major reasons (aside of course from bad costume, nonsensical moniker, and just poor design all around) that Warren fails as a serialized comic villain. He fails to entertain.

By your admission, Conway designed Warren to be a badly written villain so that would play a much larger role in why he fails to entertain not because he has any similarity to real life people (plenty of villains manage to be entertaining in spite of or because of that).

[Spiderfan001]

This comic is aimed at people who would be interested in buying a comic starring Ben Reilly, which includes those who have probably never even heard of him. It is not aimed at anyone who hates him not does it have to engage with anyone who dislikes the character as they have more than likely made up their mind about Ben already. If people who hated Ben end up liking the character because of this new direction that would be great, but it doesn't mean it was the main goal.

At some point, a person crosses the line from "expressing frustration" to obnoxious, borderline troll behavior.

That's good and all but it is still an ASM comic.You are talking as if people are complaining about Ben getting a solo whereas the truth is he is taking the place of many peoples favourite character on here.
CBR is by far the most excited about beyond.Most other platforms average anywhere from a "This is god awful" to a "Oh.. this again".
This isn't to say you can attack people for being excited, just that negative feedback is just as valid as positive one.

[Shunt]

This.

It was never stated in the original story by Conway (because he intended for that to be the final word on it). But the second Clone Saga DID explain how Ben did have Peter's memories as The Jackal had a machine to implant memories and so forth. The Jackal studied Peter and kept tabs on him endlessly and whatever he didn't have access to he got given to him by Osborn and his network.

They needed a explanation as people raised how Ben could fall for Janine/Elizabeth (a red head) in The Lost Years, when supposedly he shouldn't have as he was cloned from a sample when Peter still had feelings for Gwen.

The Jackal was also accomplished with brainwashing too. He had that Gwen Clone out in the suburbs he was married too and her memories were false! (Web #125 I think that story was in).

I should point out that when I say the how and when weren't entirely explained means the actual mechanism was left deliberately obscured, but it was definitely addressed and left into the realm of the plausible by "in universe" logic. DeMatteis preferred to go with a "psychoanalytic" approach for obvious storytelling reasons. He was really into it at the time.

It's true some readers, who will always find continuity problems where there's none if the don't like the story, will find trouble with this if they have already decided the conclusions before any consideration, but there's no much to think about the memory department, really. There are certainly most serious plotholes surrounding the whole clone saga, Norman Osborn being the one behind all included.

[Shunt]

CBR is by far the most excited about beyond.Most other platforms average anywhere from a "This is god awful" to a "Oh.. this again".

From what I read on Reddit and Twitter, I wouldn't say there's a huge backlash against this new story, I've seen more of a mixed response.