Spider-Man Beyond

[The Negative Zone]

I really hope they don’t reintroduce any Ben/Jackal shit, unless it’s to retcon it (maybe say it was Spidercide like someone suggested).

Editorial should have told Spencer to retcon something with Ben/Jackal.. maybe make that Ben an alternate universe version? Clone Conspiracy had some alt universe traveling via Kaine and Gwen if I recall.

[Reilly]

I really hope they don’t reintroduce any Ben/Jackal shit, unless it’s to retcon it (maybe say it was Spidercide like someone suggested).

Same. Clone Conspiracy is the story no one wants to talk about. Either retcon it or let it die. Spidercide would be an okay retcon, Ben even acts like Spidercide, so it would work. I dunno, some chip in Ben's brain with Spidercide persona, that get's blow up when Superior fixes Ben in Spider-Geddon. Clone Conspiracy is insulting and it's really easy to fix when I think about it. We had bigger retcons.

[Huntsman Spider]

Same. Clone Conspiracy is the story no one wants to talk about. Either retcon it or let it die. Spidercide would be an okay retcon, Ben even acts like Spidercide, so it would work. I dunno, some chip in Ben's brain with Spidercide persona, that get's blow up when Superior fixes Ben in Spider-Geddon. Clone Conspiracy is insulting and it's really easy to fix when I think about it. We had bigger retcons.

My personal canon for Clone Conspiracy is that it's D'Spayre's fault. Out of spite and revenge for Ben beating him in their previous encounters, he piggybacked on and amplified the torment and insanity caused by Miles Warren's "reanimation" experiments that brought Ben back to drive him over the edge and into the absolute nadir of despair.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind most of Clone Conspiracy? I can see Ben being so damaged he wants to do good even if it's by some remarkably bent ways, because all the amount of death might have just made him snap so badly.

It's at the ending where it goes sideways real damn bad, because everybody starts to act like morons. Otto, who's also supposed to not be particularly fond of dying, decides to doom everybody in the complex because Ben was politically incorrect about his waifu, and then Ben, who's literally developed an absolutely pathological fear of death because of everything he went through, decides to exterminate the human race for their own good, because he wants to stop people from even going through that.

Huh. 'kay then.

And in a fictional universe where the Cancerverse is a thing, it's not like you need an absolute zombie apocalypse to drive point the home that unshackled life is not a very good idea.

It unfortunately pretty much all but crystalized Slott's tendency to have the characters take a backseat to what the plot requires - I think the first time that really came through was in his Mighty Avengers run when Pym and Reed Richards had a silly dispute down to Pym saying "It's on, bitch".

[Tien Long]

Same. Clone Conspiracy is the story no one wants to talk about. Either retcon it or let it die. Spidercide would be an okay retcon, Ben even acts like Spidercide, so it would work. I dunno, some chip in Ben's brain with Spidercide persona, that get's blow up when Superior fixes Ben in Spider-Geddon. Clone Conspiracy is insulting and it's really easy to fix when I think about it. We had bigger retcons.

I'm alight with Clone Conspiracy. It's logical. I wasn't clear on it at the time, but I chalk up the change in personality to the multiple times Ben was killed and re-cloned. I think it was somewhat addressed in the Peter David series. It was resolved in Spider-Geddon right?

For me, Ben's mistakes at that time add more character. I'm sensing that part of him being part of the Beyond Corporation is to atone for what he did back then. And I like that.

[Huntsman Spider]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind most of Clone Conspiracy? I can see Ben being so damaged he wants to do good even if it's by some remarkably bent ways, because all the amount of death might have just made him snap so badly.

It's at the ending where it goes sideways real damn bad, because everybody starts to act like morons. Otto, who's also supposed to not be particularly fond of dying, decides to doom everybody in the complex because Ben was politically incorrect about his waifu, and then Ben, who's literally developed an absolutely pathological fear of death because of everything he went through, decides to exterminate the human race for their own good, because he wants to stop people from even going through that.

Huh. 'kay then.

And in a fictional universe where the Cancerverse is a thing, it's not like you need an absolute zombie apocalypse to drive point the home that unshackled life is not a very good idea.

It unfortunately pretty much all but crystalized Slott's tendency to have the characters take a backseat to what the plot requires - I think the first time that really came through was in his Mighty Avengers run when Pym and Reed Richards had a silly dispute down to Pym saying "It's on, bitch".

Fair point you bring up about the moment things really broke down in Clone Conspiracy. A lot of people act like Ben just went and tried to kill the entire human race out of nowhere, but it did start with Otto getting pissed over Ben insulting Anna Maria and setting off the signal to accelerate the cellular degeneration of the "reanimated" out of spite once he discovered "the Jackal" he'd been working with was also a Spider-Man, feeling like he'd been played for a fool the entire time. Granted, Ben did escalate it into trying to kill and "reanimate" all humanity, but that likely wouldn't have happened without Otto's fit of pique starting that whole chain of events. Then again, Ben did also try to have Peter killed when Peter cited their Uncle Ben as the reason he wasn't going to go along with Ben's plan to undo all the deaths Peter had been unable to prevent in the past, so . . .

I'm alight with Clone Conspiracy. It's logical. I wasn't clear on it at the time, but I chalk up the change in personality to the multiple times Ben was killed and re-cloned. I think it was somewhat addressed in the Peter David series. It was resolved in Spider-Geddon right?

For me, Ben's mistakes at that time add more character. I'm sensing that part of him being part of the Beyond Corporation is to atone for what he did back then. And I like that.

Fair point, and yeah, it was resolved, insofar as Ben's psychological damage being transferred to the Inheritors' resident mad scientist Jennix when Jennix fed off his life force, along with his memories, including the 27 times he was torturously murdered and reanimated by Warren, which broke Jennix's mind. Then Otto revived Ben one more time with the same tech, but restoring him physically as well as mentally, so he didn't have to worry about the clone degeneration anymore.

[HypnoHustler]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind most of Clone Conspiracy? I can see Ben being so damaged he wants to do good even if it's by some remarkably bent ways, because all the amount of death might have just made him snap so badly.

It's at the ending where it goes sideways real damn bad, because everybody starts to act like morons. Otto, who's also supposed to not be particularly fond of dying, decides to doom everybody in the complex because Ben was politically incorrect about his waifu, and then Ben, who's literally developed an absolutely pathological fear of death because of everything he went through, decides to exterminate the human race for their own good, because he wants to stop people from even going through that.

Huh. 'kay then.
.

I mean, you start off by saying you don’t mind it, but then go on to describe why it’s so terrible. I guess I’m just less forgiving than you.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, you start off by saying you don’t mind it, but then go on to describe why it’s so terrible. I guess I’m just less forgiving than you.

Not to mention bizarre stuff like Gwen Stacy attaining consciousness split-second while being fall which is again literally impossible. It's one of those retcons for which there's no room whatsoever.

[Orbus]

Bringing Ben back as a villain (with good intentions) then spinning him off into his own solo series were he's seeking redemption always sounded like a solid plan to me.

I've always been okay with The Clone Conspiracy. Great art, interesting premise, some good character moments. I did't care for Ben trying to kill Peter when he wouldn't get on board with New U's agenda but it wasn't enough to make me write off the whole thing.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

I mean, you start off by saying you don’t mind it, but then go on to describe why it’s so terrible. I guess I’m just less forgiving than you.

That's why I said "most of it", and that it's in the ending where it goes off the rockers. I can deal with the idea that Ben comes back as morally ambiguous and tries to do good and messes up kinda badly at spots, but you can't expect any reader to ride with "tries to exterminate mankind, now please follow his monthly adventures!" smoothly trying to paint him as sympathetic. With Superior when they did that the point is that Otto was an insufferable douchebag and someone you're wanting to see fail, and it won't work all that well for this.

Also, I do think a lot of his non-murderous Jackal comments were hilarious. And that Anubis suit is boss.

Then again, Ben did also try to have Peter killed when Peter cited their Uncle Ben as the reason he wasn't going to go along with Ben's plan to undo all the deaths Peter had been unable to prevent in the past, so . . .

That one I just manage to somewhat ride with because of Peter's own reaction - he just says he's disappointed in Ben, like he realizes he's off and this is the super powered version of a brotherly squabble. It's only when he goes with the whole "kill mankind" (for absolutely no reason) thing that he says he's off the rails and doesn't even look like his brother.

I was also puzzled by PAD's inference all the time in his book that Ben was flat out a villain. For sure, I don't want that to be the character moving forward and it was morally ambiguous at best, but he basically turned Connors' life around and in the wrap-up they mention there were more clone patients that were stabilized that'd maybe need the medicine. That's pretty much a family getting a loved one back even if what happened was shady. It's no way to run things, but it's also not the absolute disaster of Ben cackling himself like a villain twirling his mustache it seemed to be presented as.

[HypnoHustler]

Bringing Ben back as a villain (with good intentions) then spinning him off into his own solo series were he's seeking redemption always sounded like a solid plan to me.

I've always been okay with The Clone Conspiracy. Great art, interesting premise, some good character moments. I did't care for Ben trying to kill Peter when he wouldn't get on board with New U's agenda but it wasn't enough to make me write off the whole thing.

The problem was the execution was awful. For a good depiction of a villain you can sympathize with or understand their motivations, I always thought the film ‘The Rock’ did a pretty good job with Ed Harris’ character in that, so it can be done.

But the dead-sidekick-coming-back-evil trope is such an edgelord move… not to mention it had already been done much better and much earlier with both Winter Soldier and Red Hood. And then Slott started saying in interviews that maybe Ben was the Jackal during ‘Spider Island’, which thankfully was never established as canon within the actual books. The whole thing was a slow motion train wreck for Ben fans.

[The Black Death]

I agree, the reasoning should be that he wasn't mentally stable at the time.I'm just saying they can also use it as something to put beyond is Jeopardy.

Also one thing I want in Beyond is the Beyond team but also Ben to realize how difficult Peter's job really is.
I've been re-reading DC comics from the colony arc where Tim "dies" and I love how they mention going forward what Tim would have done different/better.This was f*cking Batman and Bat-fam saying all this, so I'm not saying Ben can't do what Peter can but maybe highlight how much crime Peter really stopped.How many people he really helped and not just fight criminials, and how even despite media/government being negative about Spidey people of NYC still have his back after all the years he spent helping them.
Superior never did that, expect the smart thing where Ock couldn't solve something in 8 minutes Peter could in seconds.There are so many kids he visits on a regular basis, that is something they should focus on.Have other heroes reflect how it's so much more dull w/out Spidey like DD.

Although what we will probably get is people loving Beyond, and everything being better w/ Spidey gone like superior........I will never understand why they keep going the "superior" or "new and improved" route w/ Peter's death.
Everyone's death from Cap to Wolverine to Iron man, etc. deaths are treated as big looses but Peter's are treated as a stepstone to something better.F*cking Nightwing to Ric got more respect than they give Peter's deaths.Because fans want to see how bad Peter was at his job and how good others can be.........

There are so many organic ways to Bring Ben in as Spider-man without going the new and improved route.Peter's mind isn't straight, he almost gets someone killed.He needs to get his peace of mind and leaves w/ MJ to attain that.He calls Ben and asks him to look over NYC.Boom, PeterMJ figuring their life out, heck we might even have him get some special spiritual training while were at it while Ben handles NYC as Spider-man.If you want Beyond then you can say Ben feels a bit overwhelmed, maybe because he's been out of the loop or because Beyond is creating more crime to deal w/ and he needs help and beyond approaches him.He's suspicious but Janine out of jail wins him over for the time being.Then we can go on w/ the stories we have to tell.

I just..... there are so many better ways to go about this Idea.Should probably save this and post it after the first 2 issues but screw it, if I called it and I called, and if they have an actual twist then I'm an idiot.

TLDR:-It's a stupid rant, just ignore it.I'd delete it but already wrote it down, and I want too see if I was right about how they deal w/ all this in Beyond or will they surprise.

Beyond will not care how difficult it was for Peter to be Spider-Man, the one who would understand it perfectly would be Ben himself because he was also Spider-Man in his time, DC now is not very relevant, the only worthy successors to Batman were only Dick and Damian. And about Peter's deaths were only temporary at the end, long ago in the comics deaths stopped mattering, besides Ben's return as Spider-Man is already done, you can't do anything to change that. If it's any consolation prize, when Peter returns as Spider-Man he'll probably be a more mature Peter and married to MJ again.

[Pav]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind most of Clone Conspiracy?

I've long been open to the idea of Ben experimenting with his own sense of morality, and so I don't mind the idea of the Clone Conspiracy. But there were some key mistakes made that really damaged what could've been an interesting path for Ben.

Mistake #1: Not enough slow burn. Ben should've been in the background of the whole Parker Inc stuff, and maybe even further back in Superior. Slott should've leaned more into them both suddenly being businessmen, but that was barely acknowledged as a story beat.

Mistake #2: Ben going crazy. The whole point of Ben's character is that he's isn't Peter Parker but is Peter Parker. So it's not crazy that Ben would take on the mantle of the Jackal; after all, Peter decided to help the Jackal himself for a hot minute. What's not believable is Ben going mad supervillain, cackling maniacally -- that kind of stuff. His actions should be believable as Peter's actions, and Slott seemed to forget that.

I think if Ben's actions would've been more believable, people might've been more accepting of Ben as the Jackal. After all, his costume was brilliant and that's often most of the battle with fans, I think

That being said, even if Ben had succeeded as the Jackal, I like to think he'd have become a Spider again anyway. Seeing these previews of Ben smiling while wearing a proper Spidey suit is incredibly rewarding to see.

-Pav, who is imaging a Ben-centric Spiderverse featuring Beyond Ben, Perfect 90s Ben, Spider-Carnage, and Ben as the Jackal...

[Lukmendes]

I agree, the reasoning should be that he wasn't mentally stable at the time.I'm just saying they can also use it as something to put beyond is Jeopardy.

Also one thing I want in Beyond is the Beyond team but also Ben to realize how difficult Peter's job really is.
I've been re-reading DC comics from the colony arc where Tim "dies" and I love how they mention going forward what Tim would have done different/better.This was f*cking Batman and Bat-fam saying all this, so I'm not saying Ben can't do what Peter can but maybe highlight how much crime Peter really stopped.How many people he really helped and not just fight criminials, and how even despite media/government being negative about Spidey people of NYC still have his back after all the years he spent helping them.
Superior never did that, expect the smart thing where Ock couldn't solve something in 8 minutes Peter could in seconds.There are so many kids he visits on a regular basis, that is something they should focus on.Have other heroes reflect how it's so much more dull w/out Spidey like DD.

Although what we will probably get is people loving Beyond, and everything being better w/ Spidey gone like superior........I will never understand why they keep going the "superior" or "new and improved" route w/ Peter's death.
Everyone's death from Cap to Wolverine to Iron man, etc. deaths are treated as big looses but Peter's are treated as a stepstone to something better.F*cking Nightwing to Ric got more respect than they give Peter's deaths.Because fans want to see how bad Peter was at his job and how good others can be.........

There are so many organic ways to Bring Ben in as Spider-man without going the new and improved route.Peter's mind isn't straight, he almost gets someone killed.He needs to get his peace of mind and leaves w/ MJ to attain that.He calls Ben and asks him to look over NYC.Boom, PeterMJ figuring their life out, heck we might even have him get some special spiritual training while were at it while Ben handles NYC as Spider-man.If you want Beyond then you can say Ben feels a bit overwhelmed, maybe because he's been out of the loop or because Beyond is creating more crime to deal w/ and he needs help and beyond approaches him.He's suspicious but Janine out of jail wins him over for the time being.Then we can go on w/ the stories we have to tell.

I just..... there are so many better ways to go about this Idea.Should probably save this and post it after the first 2 issues but screw it, if I called it and I called, and if they have an actual twist then I'm an idiot.

TLDR:-It's a stupid rant, just ignore it.I'd delete it but already wrote it down, and I want too see if I was right about how they deal w/ all this in Beyond or will they surprise.

Considering that Kindred tormented Peter for possibly months, him stopping to rest instead of a random injury could be nice.

Fair point you bring up about the moment things really broke down in Clone Conspiracy. A lot of people act like Ben just went and tried to kill the entire human race out of nowhere, but it did start with Otto getting pissed over Ben insulting Anna Maria and setting off the signal to accelerate the cellular degeneration of the "reanimated" out of spite once he discovered "the Jackal" he'd been working with was also a Spider-Man, feeling like he'd been played for a fool the entire time. Granted, Ben did escalate it into trying to kill and "reanimate" all humanity, but that likely wouldn't have happened without Otto's fit of pique starting that whole chain of events. Then again, Ben did also try to have Peter killed when Peter cited their Uncle Ben as the reason he wasn't going to go along with Ben's plan to undo all the deaths Peter had been unable to prevent in the past, so . . .

Worth keeping in mind that Ben didn't decide to kill Peter on a spur of the moment too, his hair is brown instead of blonde, and the other universes Kaine visited had "Peter" working together with other Miles Warren, it's very likely Ben was planning to kill and replace Peter all along if he didn't help out.

Fair point, and yeah, it was resolved, insofar as Ben's psychological damage being transferred to the Inheritors' resident mad scientist Jennix when Jennix fed off his life force, along with his memories, including the 27 times he was torturously murdered and reanimated by Warren, which broke Jennix's mind. Then Otto revived Ben one more time with the same tech, but restoring him physically as well as mentally, so he didn't have to worry about the clone degeneration anymore.

Huh, that explanation is less bad than I remembered.

Still really awkward how the soul thing was solved like that, but hey...

Not to mention bizarre stuff like Gwen Stacy attaining consciousness split-second while being fall which is again literally impossible. It's one of those retcons for which there's no room whatsoever.

What's so impossible about that? She woke up while Peter and Norman were fighting and heard their talk, then she fell, she didn't wake up while falling.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What's so impossible about that? She woke up while Peter and Norman were fighting and heard their talk, then she fell, she didn't wake up while falling.

It literally wasn't possible. The panels of the original issue showed her unconscious all through the fight.

Gwen Snap Spidey 6 - Goblin rams Gwen off bridge.jpg

There is literally no room for Gwen to attain consciousness at any point. This retcon outright contradicts the original issue. It's not working within the established rules of using wiggle room to work in new details, it's just blatantly restaging earlier scenes like an AU which is cool but don't do that in 616.