Spider-Man Beyond

[Lukmendes]

It literally wasn't possible. The panels of the original issue showed her unconscious all through the fight.

Attachment 114336

There is literally no room for Gwen to attain consciousness at any point. This retcon outright contradicts the original issue. It's not working within the established rules of using wiggle room to work in new details, it's just blatantly restaging earlier scenes like an AU which is cool but don't do that in 616.

She woke up earlier when Spidey and Norman were talking with each other:





(Clone Conspiracy#1)

And yeah, it contradicts the original, retcons are mostly like that, after all, Captain America never became a living ice cream in his original run, as he stayed around after WWII.

I don't really like this retcon by the way, but again, it's a retcon, if we're talking shit about this one just because it contradicts what happened on the original, then there's a lot of shit to talk about in Spider-Man, this is just another one on the pile.

[Spiderfan001]

Beyond will not care how difficult it was for Peter to be Spider-Man, the one who would understand it perfectly would be Ben himself because he was also Spider-Man in his time, DC now is not very relevant, the only worthy successors to Batman were only Dick and Damian. And about Peter's deaths were only temporary at the end, long ago in the comics deaths stopped mattering, besides Ben's return as Spider-Man is already done, you can't do anything to change that. If it's any consolation prize, when Peter returns as Spider-Man he'll probably be a more mature Peter and married to MJ again.

No, I meant Beyond/Ben being surprised by the sheer amount of crime Peter stopped, a throwaway line would do.
Wolverine's death and Tony's death were recent, even Cap's death was after the whole death has no meaning thing.All of them were respectable deaths and all had legacies that honored them saying they will try to live up to them, but Peter's are always treated as getting rid of trash and look we have something better.Ofc I get the concept once, superior was all about that.Why do it twice in the same decade.
Also Peter always "dies" for someone else's story, whereas all the others die in their own story's plot and we get a legacy in the next one.If Peter was dying/coma in the end of Sinister War I would feel like this makes a lot more sense, but they killing/coma etc. him at the start of this story for the sake of another character, again.
Hopefully, it all depends on the writer tbh.

It literally wasn't possible. The panels of the original issue showed her unconscious all through the fight.

Attachment 114336

There is literally no room for Gwen to attain consciousness at any point. This retcon outright contradicts the original issue. It's not working within the established rules of using wiggle room to work in new details, it's just blatantly restaging earlier scenes like an AU which is cool but don't do that in 616.

You have a point, I don't think there was any way she heard that.Also I wish they talked about Sins Past, just have Gwen say she has no Idea what he's talking about and Peter has lie detectors in the suit.Would have made the event atleast have some +ve side.

[Vworp Vworp]

I haven't reviewed the whole thread for a while, so I don't know if this has already been resolved. But is there any general consensus (or has it been officially confirmed anywhere) if Beyond's Ben is actually Clone-Conspiracy-Ben or their own Ben? I know CC-Ben was 'fixed', but he still never really felt like a proper Ben to me. Certainly his recent appearances in Iron Man were as generic and devoid of any real personality as you can get, albeit he only seemed to have been included as a joke anyway.

What piqued my curiosity though was when the Beyond employee said to Janine that they had "moved heaven and earth" for her. Because for a company that works in multiverses, that felt like a very specific turn of phrase. So might this be a parallel Ben, simply yoinked from a universe where he didn't die, and who perhaps has been Spidey all this time?

Yes, having two Ben's around could be an issue. But it would mean Beyond Ben was free of all the baggage that came with CC-Ben's awful re-introduction and equally awful solo book.

[Spiderfan001]

I haven't reviewed the whole thread for a while, so I don't know if this has already been resolved. But is there any general consensus (or has it been officially confirmed anywhere) if Beyond's Ben is actually Clone-Conspiracy-Ben or their own Ben? I know CC-Ben was 'fixed', but he still never really felt like a proper Ben to me. Certainly his recent appearances in Iron Man were as generic and devoid of any real personality as you can get, albeit he only seemed to have been included as a joke anyway.

What piqued my curiosity though was when the Beyond employee said to Janine that they had "moved heaven and earth" for her. Because for a company that works in multiverses, that felt like a very specific turn of phrase. So might this be a parallel Ben, simply yoinked from a universe where he didn't die, and who perhaps has been Spidey all this time?

Yes, having two Ben's around could be an issue. But it would mean Beyond Ben was free of all the baggage that came with CC-Ben's awful re-introduction and equally awful solo book.

We have seen him in FCBD and it seems like he's our Ben but never stated IIRC, is a possibility for sure.

[Vworp Vworp]

We have seen him in FCBD and it seems like he's our Ben but never stated IIRC, is a possibility for sure.

Ah yeah, just had a quick look see. It doesn't explicitly state it's CC-Ben, but it does reference the Scarlet Spider costume, which does imply that it is him.

That's a shame.

[Huntsman Spider]

That's why I said "most of it", and that it's in the ending where it goes off the rockers. I can deal with the idea that Ben comes back as morally ambiguous and tries to do good and messes up kinda badly at spots, but you can't expect any reader to ride with "tries to exterminate mankind, now please follow his monthly adventures!" smoothly trying to paint him as sympathetic. With Superior when they did that the point is that Otto was an insufferable douchebag and someone you're wanting to see fail, and it won't work all that well for this.

Also, I do think a lot of his non-murderous Jackal comments were hilarious. And that Anubis suit is boss.

That one I just manage to somewhat ride with because of Peter's own reaction - he just says he's disappointed in Ben, like he realizes he's off and this is the super powered version of a brotherly squabble. It's only when he goes with the whole "kill mankind" (for absolutely no reason) thing that he says he's off the rails and doesn't even look like his brother.

I was also puzzled by PAD's inference all the time in his book that Ben was flat out a villain. For sure, I don't want that to be the character moving forward and it was morally ambiguous at best, but he basically turned Connors' life around and in the wrap-up they mention there were more clone patients that were stabilized that'd maybe need the medicine. That's pretty much a family getting a loved one back even if what happened was shady. It's no way to run things, but it's also not the absolute disaster of Ben cackling himself like a villain twirling his mustache it seemed to be presented as.

Some good points there, I'll admit. Yeah, the scarlet suit and Anubis mask were a cool look for Ben as the New U Jackal, and inspired me for an idea that would tie back with Kaine and Aracely's story as well, namely Mictlan (the Aztec underworld) punishing Ben for daring to tamper in the realm of life and death by making him their champion in opposition to Kaine as Aracely's champion, given the implication she was the mortal reincarnation of the Aztec sun/war god Huitzilopochtli. Beyond that, yeah, Ben being portrayed in PAD's Scarlet Spider as having been a straightforward villain during Clone Conspiracy instead of (at first) trying to do good, albeit in a very morally dubious and incredibly misguided way, didn't sit well with me, either.

I've long been open to the idea of Ben experimenting with his own sense of morality, and so I don't mind the idea of the Clone Conspiracy. But there were some key mistakes made that really damaged what could've been an interesting path for Ben.

Mistake #1: Not enough slow burn. Ben should've been in the background of the whole Parker Inc stuff, and maybe even further back in Superior. Slott should've leaned more into them both suddenly being businessmen, but that was barely acknowledged as a story beat.

Mistake #2: Ben going crazy. The whole point of Ben's character is that he's isn't Peter Parker but is Peter Parker. So it's not crazy that Ben would take on the mantle of the Jackal; after all, Peter decided to help the Jackal himself for a hot minute. What's not believable is Ben going mad supervillain, cackling maniacally -- that kind of stuff. His actions should be believable as Peter's actions, and Slott seemed to forget that.

I think if Ben's actions would've been more believable, people might've been more accepting of Ben as the Jackal. After all, his costume was brilliant and that's often most of the battle with fans, I think

That being said, even if Ben had succeeded as the Jackal, I like to think he'd have become a Spider again anyway. Seeing these previews of Ben smiling while wearing a proper Spidey suit is incredibly rewarding to see.

-Pav, who is imaging a Ben-centric Spiderverse featuring Beyond Ben, Perfect 90s Ben, Spider-Carnage, and Ben as the Jackal...

I could agree with all that, though Ben snapping completely probably happened not only from Peter's rejection, but also Otto trying to blow up everything he'd worked to achieve, so in a sense, trying to kill and "reanimate" the entire human race was him desperately trying to reassert some semblance of control. Again, this would be where my personal canon of D'Spayre piggybacking off what Warren did to Ben and messing further with Ben's already-fracturing psyche could work. Also, if you're going to have a Ben-centric Spider-Verse-style team-up . . . why not original Scarlet Spider, too?

Considering that Kindred tormented Peter for possibly months, him stopping to rest instead of a random injury could be nice.



Worth keeping in mind that Ben didn't decide to kill Peter on a spur of the moment too, his hair is brown instead of blonde, and the other universes Kaine visited had "Peter" working together with other Miles Warren, it's very likely Ben was planning to kill and replace Peter all along if he didn't help out.



Huh, that explanation is less bad than I remembered.

Still really awkward how the soul thing was solved like that, but hey...



What's so impossible about that? She woke up while Peter and Norman were fighting and heard their talk, then she fell, she didn't wake up while falling.

Yeah, that makes sense, come to think of it, and though Ben's psycho-spiritual damage being transferred to Jennix is fairly awkward as an explanation for him being completely healed in both body and mind after his next revival, I think it works, for the most part.

[classicgmer]

I haven't reviewed the whole thread for a while, so I don't know if this has already been resolved. But is there any general consensus (or has it been officially confirmed anywhere) if Beyond's Ben is actually Clone-Conspiracy-Ben or their own Ben? I know CC-Ben was 'fixed', but he still never really felt like a proper Ben to me. Certainly his recent appearances in Iron Man were as generic and devoid of any real personality as you can get, albeit he only seemed to have been included as a joke anyway.

What piqued my curiosity though was when the Beyond employee said to Janine that they had "moved heaven and earth" for her. Because for a company that works in multiverses, that felt like a very specific turn of phrase. So might this be a parallel Ben, simply yoinked from a universe where he didn't die, and who perhaps has been Spidey all this time?

Yes, having two Ben's around could be an issue. But it would mean Beyond Ben was free of all the baggage that came with CC-Ben's awful re-introduction and equally awful solo book.

I haven't been wild about many of Ben's appearances since they brought him back but the solution to me isn't to replace him with an alternate universe doppleganger to provide a clean slate version of the character but rather to move on from the not so great stories and try to write better stories.

None of the stuff post PAD's SS have provided the necessary page/panel time to really show if he's closer to how many of us would like to see him portrayed but we're now going to get plenty of content over the next 6 months so we'll see if Marvel can course correct.

[PanicPixieDreamGirl]

She woke up earlier when Spidey and Norman were talking with each other:





(Clone Conspiracy#1)

And yeah, it contradicts the original, retcons are mostly like that, after all, Captain America never became a living ice cream in his original run, as he stayed around after WWII.

I don't really like this retcon by the way, but again, it's a retcon, if we're talking shit about this one just because it contradicts what happened on the original, then there's a lot of shit to talk about in Spider-Man, this is just another one on the pile.

This is the first I've heard of this story (I'm out of the loop) and ugh, "Gwen died hating/fearing Peter" is a real twist of the knife.

[Hypestyle]

what "generation" is "current Ben", just to be clear?

Does Kaine/Scarlet Spider know anything about all of this new scenario?

There are no more "Iron Spiders" out there, are they?

What sort of personal life do the authors intend to develop for Ben? Are they completely separate from original Peter's circle of friends and family? Is Ben being set up with any kind of dating life at all?

[Jman27]

She woke up earlier when Spidey and Norman were talking with each other:





(Clone Conspiracy#1)

And yeah, it contradicts the original, retcons are mostly like that, after all, Captain America never became a living ice cream in his original run, as he stayed around after WWII.

I don't really like this retcon by the way, but again, it's a retcon, if we're talking shit about this one just because it contradicts what happened on the original, then there's a lot of shit to talk about in Spider-Man, this is just another one on the pile.

is it really a retcon? Green Goblin said she was dead prior to arrival but are we sure. Can we really take norman words. Plus there the snap Peter could have his kill her too. I dont mind this since she always had beef with Spider-man plus their relationship was starting to fail as well correct

[Lukmendes]

Mistake #1: Not enough slow burn. Ben should've been in the background of the whole Parker Inc stuff, and maybe even further back in Superior. Slott should've leaned more into them both suddenly being businessmen, but that was barely acknowledged as a story beat.

I think his showing up as far back as Superior may not work, since it's possible that Slott was planning to leave, so having Ben around as Jackal wouldn't really work if he really was planning to leave (Assuming he even planned Clone Conspiracy that far back in any way).

And yeah, more could've been done to develop Ben before CC, he even showed up a few times, during PI era, but it was just to recruit other villains.

Mistake #2: Ben going crazy. The whole point of Ben's character is that he's isn't Peter Parker but is Peter Parker. So it's not crazy that Ben would take on the mantle of the Jackal; after all, Peter decided to help the Jackal himself for a hot minute. What's not believable is Ben going mad supervillain, cackling maniacally -- that kind of stuff. His actions should be believable as Peter's actions, and Slott seemed to forget that.

I think if Ben's actions would've been more believable, people might've been more accepting of Ben as the Jackal. After all, his costume was brilliant and that's often most of the battle with fans, I think

That being said, even if Ben had succeeded as the Jackal, I like to think he'd have become a Spider again anyway. Seeing these previews of Ben smiling while wearing a proper Spidey suit is incredibly rewarding to see.

-Pav, who is imaging a Ben-centric Spiderverse featuring Beyond Ben, Perfect 90s Ben, Spider-Carnage, and Ben as the Jackal...

Him becoming so unhinged could've worked if the good intentions stayed, but it's implied he was willing to kill and replace Peter if he didn't join Ben, so even before he was trying to kill everyone on the planet, he was still more evil than he should.

I haven't reviewed the whole thread for a while, so I don't know if this has already been resolved. But is there any general consensus (or has it been officially confirmed anywhere) if Beyond's Ben is actually Clone-Conspiracy-Ben or their own Ben? I know CC-Ben was 'fixed', but he still never really felt like a proper Ben to me. Certainly his recent appearances in Iron Man were as generic and devoid of any real personality as you can get, albeit he only seemed to have been included as a joke anyway.

What piqued my curiosity though was when the Beyond employee said to Janine that they had "moved heaven and earth" for her. Because for a company that works in multiverses, that felt like a very specific turn of phrase. So might this be a parallel Ben, simply yoinked from a universe where he didn't die, and who perhaps has been Spidey all this time?

Yes, having two Ben's around could be an issue. But it would mean Beyond Ben was free of all the baggage that came with CC-Ben's awful re-introduction and equally awful solo book.

Beyond Ben being someone else would be odd anyways, to conveniently have another Ben from another universe who for some reason went to 616 so he could end up with Janine?

And the "moving heaven and earth" for her is just them explaining that they're doing all of this to have Ben's loyalty, I doubt that's supposed to reference it's another Ben.

Yeah, that makes sense, come to think of it, and though Ben's psycho-spiritual damage being transferred to Jennix is fairly awkward as an explanation for him being completely healed in both body and mind after his next revival, I think it works, for the most part.

"It works" in the sense of getting rid of a bad characterization, but it's just too convenient that he now gets to be the good Ben so easily, and it wasn't even his own doing, someone else cured him, someone trying to kill him even lol.

It's kinda like Felicia's redemption in Venom Inc, the way she's redeemed there is bad (It's just Venom saying "HEY, YOU FAILED AS A VILLAIN, SO WHY NOT BECOME A HERO INSTEAD?!"), but at least it means we don't have to put up with Queenpin again.

This is the first I've heard of this story (I'm out of the loop) and ugh, "Gwen died hating/fearing Peter" is a real twist of the knife.

While it looks like it's the case, she clears up in ASM#23 vol 4 that she still loves Peter, but died feeling betrayed, which's a lot less bad, and understandable:

[HypnoHustler]

is it really a retcon?

Yes.

It’s not a huge retcon, but it is adding additional information to a story that the original writer didn’t intend. Gwen was definitely depicted as unconscious in #121 originally. It’s not the worst retcon in the world, but I’m not a huge fan of it either…

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Yes.

It’s not a huge retcon, but it is adding additional information to a story that the original writer didn’t intend. Gwen was definitely depicted as unconscious in #121 originally. It’s not the worst retcon in the world, but I’m not a huge fan of it either…

It's not a question about it being a bad retcon, it's just impossible because there's literally nowhere to insert it.

Any retcon to make sense needs at least some freedom of movement to inject itself in continuity. In this case, every panel of Gwen in ASM#121 showed her as unconscious during that entire fight. There's no room at all for her to attain consciousness in that scene.

The only way it works is if you accept Clone Conspiracy's art as a truer representation than ASM#121-122 and that's just not gonna ever happen. The latter is a classic and historical storyline, the former is a lame faux-nostalgia event.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think his showing up as far back as Superior may not work, since it's possible that Slott was planning to leave, so having Ben around as Jackal wouldn't really work if he really was planning to leave (Assuming he even planned Clone Conspiracy that far back in any way).

And yeah, more could've been done to develop Ben before CC, he even showed up a few times, during PI era, but it was just to recruit other villains.



Him becoming so unhinged could've worked if the good intentions stayed, but it's implied he was willing to kill and replace Peter if he didn't join Ben, so even before he was trying to kill everyone on the planet, he was still more evil than he should.



Beyond Ben being someone else would be odd anyways, to conveniently have another Ben from another universe who for some reason went to 616 so he could end up with Janine?

And the "moving heaven and earth" for her is just them explaining that they're doing all of this to have Ben's loyalty, I doubt that's supposed to reference it's another Ben.



"It works" in the sense of getting rid of a bad characterization, but it's just too convenient that he now gets to be the good Ben so easily, and it wasn't even his own doing, someone else cured him, someone trying to kill him even lol.

It's kinda like Felicia's redemption in Venom Inc, the way she's redeemed there is bad (It's just Venom saying "HEY, YOU FAILED AS A VILLAIN, SO WHY NOT BECOME A HERO INSTEAD?!"), but at least it means we don't have to put up with Queenpin again.



While it looks like it's the case, she clears up in ASM#23 vol 4 that she still loves Peter, but died feeling betrayed, which's a lot less bad, and understandable:

Fair point there, come to think of it. Hell, speaking of Felicia, even Brian Bendis, at least in my opinion, did a better job with his take on her redemption over in Defenders, since near the start of that series, she secretly saved Luke Cage's life by getting him to Night Nurse despite them being on opposing sides, even though it made her a target for Diamondback (the one that was Luke's longtime foe and was responsible for Luke needing Night Nurse in the first place), and by the end, she was done with the "Queenpin" lifestyle for good, making a rather definitive statement on that front by shooting up Diamondback.

[Lukmendes]

It's not a question about it being a bad retcon, it's just impossible because there's literally nowhere to insert it.

Any retcon to make sense needs at least some freedom of movement to inject itself in continuity. In this case, every panel of Gwen in ASM#121 showed her as unconscious during that entire fight. There's no room at all for her to attain consciousness in that scene.

The only way it works is if you accept Clone Conspiracy's art as a truer representation than ASM#121-122 and that's just not gonna ever happen. The latter is a classic and historical storyline, the former is a lame faux-nostalgia event.

I mean, a "bad" retcon can improve a story later on, Kirby saying that Cap became an ice cream at some point was just lazy, but it made us have Cap in modern age.

Not that this is anything of that brought something good, it just had Gwen be awake and hear what Spidey and Norman are saying, which's, okay I guess.

Fair point there, come to think of it. Hell, speaking of Felicia, even Brian Bendis, at least in my opinion, did a better job with his take on her redemption over in Defenders, since near the start of that series, she secretly saved Luke Cage's life by getting him to Night Nurse despite them being on opposing sides, even though it made her a target for Diamondback (the one that was Luke's longtime foe and was responsible for Luke needing Night Nurse in the first place), and by the end, she was done with the "Queenpin" lifestyle for good, making a rather definitive statement on that front by shooting up Diamondback.

That is definitely better, because at least there was an actual effort to show that Felicia can still do good.

Of course, it's hard to explain Felicia being suddenly good when she's just a generic villain as Queenpin, but the change from normal Felicia to Queenpin was bad to begin with...

Meanwhile in Venom Inc, all she does is be a villain, then she's sad that she failed as Queenpin, Venom shows up and tells her to be a hero, and we don't even see her thoughts about what he said, and we're supposed to be convinced that made her change sides, fucking lazy lol.