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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Or maybe….just maybe….some kind of dialogue can come from this? Maybe him reaching out to the people he’s wronged could be the first step in some actual progress? Something more than folks splitting into two camps and shouting at the other side while performing for those on theirs?

    Maybe I’m too optimistic or too middle of the road….but that thought doesn’t seem beyond reason.
    Maybe he can send each woman a gift basket, it's not much but it's something.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  2. #32
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairys View Post
    Well, according to the SoManyOfUs website, the dialogue has already started after Ellis recently reached out. Let's wait and see what comes of it, I guess.

    I would be surprised if this ends in a place where either
    (a) SoManyOfUs forgives Ellis and endorses the resumption of his career as before (not that those women are obligated to do so, of course), or
    (b) Fell gets published under Image

    I think Ellis is just going to have to live with being a black sheep of the industry and writing and publishing comics through either crowd-funding or small publishers.
    My hope is that reaching out to them is a first step toward something. My take is that each side in this (and by that I mean Ellis and the So Many of Us folks, not their proponents online) seems more genuine than those in similar circumstances. The So Many of Us group said they don’t want to Cancel him, and Ellis has acknowledged he did them wrong and wants to work toward something positive.

    There just seems a bit more nuance here than similar situations, and that gives me some hope it can work out well.

    We’ll see.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    For anyone wondering why so many can't bring themselves to take this seriously? This video sums it up. It's pretty much the most informed take on this and Heidi MacDonald and some of your favorite pros don't come off well. It's a look at the old Warren Ellis message boards. Let's just say if you treat someone like a rockstsar they are going to start acting like one...
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u0YTTysUpas
    Last edited by Anthony W; 06-27-2021 at 09:53 AM. Reason: Forgot to mention it was about the Warren Ellis message boards
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  4. #34
    Fantastic Member The Cheat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    For anyone wondering why so many can't bring themselves to take this seriously? This video sums it up. It's pretty much the most informed take on this and Heidi MacDonald and some of your favorite pros don't come off well. It's a look at the old Warren Ellis message boards. Let's just say if you treat someone like a rockstsar they are going to start acting like one...
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u0YTTysUpas
    Some very good background info to the whole situation, thanks.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cheat View Post
    Some very good background info to the whole situation, thanks.
    Robert Kirkman is now the biggest name that use to post on those boards, really hope he doesn't get caught up in this.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member Uncanny X-Man's Avatar
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    In addition to the video above which clearly details the hypocrisy of the whole situation, I find it incredibly pretentious that Image Comics are demanding "amends" to be made before they publish another Warren Ellis comic and that all those creators are crying for justice on Twitter.

    What Ellis did to all those women was unquestionably immoral, despicable even... but have any of those Twitter critics never wronged anyone in their lives, intentionally or otherwise? Have they never cheated on their partners? And how would they feel if their careers were being held hostage by someone demanding they "make amends" to the satisfaction of someone else? (not even the victims' in this case, who said right from the start they didn't want to "cancel" Ellis, which is the opposite of what's happening here)

    Or, and this goes back to the video Anthony W posted, is it just fashionable these days to feign outrage on Twitter over stuff that was apparently OK not that long ago?

  7. #37

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    Worth noting the video cites 2 articles from 2007 and 2014 respectively. That's between 14 and 7 years ago. The Engine Forums the video centers around seem to have only existed for around 2 years (August 2005 - September 2007), so again 14-16 years ago.

    It's not unreasonable to assume those article's authors have grown in the intervening years, or changed their minds. The #MeToo movement was widely influential in the entertainment industry, especially after the Harvey Weinstein allegations became public in 2017 (note how MeToo is a tagged archive on The Beat since 2017). Many people felt empowered to come forward with experiences of abuse since then, or realized past experiences followed similar characteristics/patterns of abuse.

    The comics community should allow for personal growth in authors' views on this subject, without calling changing one's mind hypocritical. Otherwise, nothing is accomplished besides making it more difficult to stand with alleging victims. Nobody but alleged abusers are served by that outcome.
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  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Uncanny X-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalSnorefest View Post
    Worth noting the video cites 2 articles from 2007 and 2014 respectively. That's between 14 and 7 years ago. The Engine Forums the video centers around seem to have only existed for around 2 years (August 2005 - September 2007), so again 14-16 years ago.

    It's not unreasonable to assume those article's authors have grown in the intervening years, or changed their minds. The #MeToo movement was widely influential in the entertainment industry, especially after the Harvey Weinstein allegations became public in 2017 (note how MeToo is a tagged archive on The Beat since 2017). Many people felt empowered to come forward with experiences of abuse since then, or realized past experiences followed similar characteristics/patterns of abuse.

    The comics community should allow for personal growth in authors' views on this subject, without calling changing one's mind hypocritical. Otherwise, nothing is accomplished besides making it more difficult to stand with alleging victims. Nobody but alleged abusers are served by that outcome.
    Yes and no. Maybe I'm just too cynical, and honestly I'd love it if this change of hearts and outpouring of comments came from a genuine place... but I can't help thinking people just jump on the bandwagon because it's oh so hip these days to condemn people with a tweet.

    You can be a decent person in whatever era you live in and shouldn't need other people to tell you what's right and wrong - and I'm rather skeptical when folks who had nothing to do with any of the people involved argue so vehemently and so publicly. Hard to say if they're doing it for themselves, to appear "woke" and all that, or if they really care about Ellis' victims.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalSnorefest View Post
    Worth noting the video cites 2 articles from 2007 and 2014 respectively. That's between 14 and 7 years ago. The Engine Forums the video centers around seem to have only existed for around 2 years (August 2005 - September 2007), so again 14-16 years ago.

    It's not unreasonable to assume those article's authors have grown in the intervening years, or changed their minds. The #MeToo movement was widely influential in the entertainment industry, especially after the Harvey Weinstein allegations became public in 2017 (note how MeToo is a tagged archive on The Beat since 2017). Many people felt empowered to come forward with experiences of abuse since then, or realized past experiences followed similar characteristics/patterns of abuse.

    The comics community should allow for personal growth in authors' views on this subject, without calling changing one's mind hypocritical. Otherwise, nothing is accomplished besides making it more difficult to stand with alleging victims. Nobody but alleged abusers are served by that outcome.
    The point of the video (titled "Everyone Always Knew"), though, was that these people didn't change their minds. They knew it was wrong then, and they know it was wrong now.

    BTW, the WEF (Warren Ellis Forums) predated The Engine and was around since the late 90s; The Engine was basically just that mid-2000s version of the WEF, which had about three incarnations. Everyone on the WEF knew Warren was a horndog sleazeball towards women back then. He also empowered women by having them be moderators on his forum, the best networking site for comics at the time, and got many women (and men) started in the industry; this is why he had immunity to be the horndog sleazeball that he was. (Some will argue the changing moral attitudes over time, but I find that to be a very small factor; really, even in the early 2000s, you could not act towards women the way Warren did unless you were very powerful, which he was).

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalSnorefest View Post
    Worth noting the video cites 2 articles from 2007 and 2014 respectively. That's between 14 and 7 years ago. The Engine Forums the video centers around seem to have only existed for around 2 years (August 2005 - September 2007), so again 14-16 years ago.

    It's not unreasonable to assume those article's authors have grown in the intervening years, or changed their minds. The #MeToo movement was widely influential in the entertainment industry, especially after the Harvey Weinstein allegations became public in 2017 (note how MeToo is a tagged archive on The Beat since 2017). Many people felt empowered to come forward with experiences of abuse since then, or realized past experiences followed similar characteristics/patterns of abuse.

    The comics community should allow for personal growth in authors' views on this subject, without calling changing one's mind hypocritical. Otherwise, nothing is accomplished besides making it more difficult to stand with alleging victims. Nobody but alleged abusers are served by that outcome.
    If Heidi MacDonald and others like her would actually acknowledge their old stances of fawning over this stuff instead of hoping no one brings it up, maybe people would be less inclined to see them as hypocrites. Tell me, is it even possible to find MacDonald's old article wishing a fond farewell to the Warren Ellis message boards or has it gone down the memory hole already?
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairys View Post
    The point of the video (titled "Everyone Always Knew"), though, was that these people didn't change their minds. They knew it was wrong then, and they know it was wrong now.

    BTW, the WEF (Warren Ellis Forums) predated The Engine and was around since the late 90s; The Engine was basically just that mid-2000s version of the WEF, which had about three incarnations. Everyone on the WEF knew Warren was a horndog sleazeball towards women back then. He also empowered women by having them be moderators on his forum, the best networking site for comics at the time, and got many women (and men) started in the industry; this is why he had immunity to be the horndog sleazeball that he was. (Some will argue the changing moral attitudes over time, but I find that to be a very small factor; really, even in the early 2000s, you could not act towards women the way Warren did unless you were very powerful, which he was).
    He even had a column on CBR "Come in Alone"
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncanny X-Man View Post
    Yes and no. Maybe I'm just too cynical, and honestly I'd love it if this change of hearts and outpouring of comments came from a genuine place... but I can't help thinking people just jump on the bandwagon because it's oh so hip these days to condemn people with a tweet.

    You can be a decent person in whatever era you live in and shouldn't need other people to tell you what's right and wrong - and I'm rather skeptical when folks who had nothing to do with any of the people involved argue so vehemently and so publicly. Hard to say if they're doing it for themselves, to appear "woke" and all that, or if they really care about Ellis' victims.
    That's an understandable position, but it does result in having to constantly call everyone's motivations into question. There will always be a degree of performativity to online discussions once an audience is involved, like on Twitter. Maybe it is naive to take people at face value, but they choose to broadcast messages of support for these alleging victims to their audience. Regardless of intent, the signal alone might be worth more than silence.

    Quote Originally Posted by hairys View Post
    The point of the video (titled "Everyone Always Knew"), though, was that these people didn't change their minds. They knew it was wrong then, and they know it was wrong now.
    I got the opposite impression: the articles cited in the video dismissed some of the women as cloying/annoying, rather than examine why they would feel pressured/motivated to go along with the alleged abuser's (implicit) requests. Now, the authors presumably realize this was a form of victim blaming, one they were accidentally perpetuating, or at least not overtly challenging. This realization (as I interpeted it) informs their current day articles on the topic, which differ in tone.

    Thank you for providing more context on these forums. It does seem baffling this behavior went largely unchallenged for years, but better late than never.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    If Heidi MacDonald and others like her would actually acknowledge their old stances of fawning over this stuff instead of hoping no one brings it up, maybe people would be less inclined to see them as hypocrites. Tell me, is it even possible to find MacDonald's old article wishing a fond farewell to the Warren Ellis message boards or has it gone down the memory hole already?
    The 2007 article can be easily found on The Beat's website (be warned it includes a disturbing photo).
    I can't and won't speak for the author's current thoughts on this older article, if they even recall writing it. Presumably they retrospectively regret some of the arguments made, but I don't follow the outlet closely enough to know. It's understandable wanting to see acknowledgement/rectification of past work, but people aren't obliged to spell out all their personal growth verbatim if their new work speaks for itself. Her recent article seems nuanced and explicitly references their past professional collaborations.
    Last edited by TotalSnorefest; 06-27-2021 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Missed one quote, apologies Anthony.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalSnorefest View Post
    Thank you for providing more context on these forums. It does seem baffling this behavior went largely unchallenged for years, but better late than never.
    No problem. For those interested in knowing how huge the WEF was back in the day, you can start watching Sequart's documentary of Ellis from the timestamp in the following link to understand: https://youtu.be/OtnkhgDn8A8?t=1839

    The whole documentary (made prior to the scandal) is excellent. And yes, you'll see plenty of examples of hypocrites* in the doc.

    * Sorry, TotalSnorefest, we'll have to agree to disagree. A common occurrence on WEF (not mentioned in this doc) were requests (often from Warren) for women to post topless/nude pics. People like Heidi had to know that this was wrong and unprofessional at the time.

  14. #44
    Incredible Member macattack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairys View Post
    Ellis and Templesmith don't really need Image to publish this. But it does seem like, at least initially, Ellis wants to grovel himself back into good graces (which might not even be possible).
    It won't be possible. Nothing will ever be good enough to satiate the mob.

    This is not excusing Ellis' alleged behavior, but he's a black sheep of the industry now and is going to have to go it alone, either independently or with small publishers who believe there's no such thing as bad publicity.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TotalSnorefest View Post
    Last edited by TotalSnorefest; Today at 04:21 PM. Reason: Missed one quote, apologies Anthony.
    It's cool. This is a very unwieldy thread.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

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