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  1. #46
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairys View Post
    The point of the video (titled "Everyone Always Knew"), though, was that these people didn't change their minds. They knew it was wrong then, and they know it was wrong now.
    Well, I think it’s more that they knew then the behavior displayed on the forums was bad. That’s not the same as acknowledging what we all now know as bad.

    I don’t know if we can assume that the woman MacDonald is describing in that old article are the same as those who’ve since come out as having been abused by Ellis. May there be some overlap? It seems possible. Should we assume MacDonald would have described them in such a way if she knew of the whole situation? That’s harder to say.

    The video that was posted seems to take for granted that these two groups are one and the same. But I don’t know why.

    My view on this is to ignore pretty much anything said by others and instead focus on what the parties involved have said. The accounts shared by the So Many of Us group paint a pretty damning picture. But they’ve said they don’t want to see him go away but that they’d rather have a dialogue with him. And Ellis has said he’s culpable. He’s said folks who are defending him should stop. But he’s also reached out.

    So the two parties are beginning some kind of discussion. I imagine it’ll be a long and difficult one for all involved. I imagine there will be loud parties online discussing it and damning the “other side”. My hope is all that noise doesn't interfere with whatever discussion is had between the group and Ellis.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Well, I think it’s more that they knew then the behavior displayed on the forums was bad. That’s not the same as acknowledging what we all now know as bad.

    I don’t know if we can assume that the woman MacDonald is describing in that old article are the same as those who’ve since come out as having been abused by Ellis. May there be some overlap? It seems possible. Should we assume MacDonald would have described them in such a way if she knew of the whole situation? That’s harder to say.

    The video that was posted seems to take for granted that these two groups are one and the same. But I don’t know why.
    Ellis' forum was his main hunting ground, if you read many of the testimonials on SoManyOfUs and also some of the reporting on the scandal.

    Very often, a posted pic on the forum begat private messages from Warren begat the woman becoming a moderator on the forum begat sexting and sharing nudes before finally meeting up at a convention hotel for physical intimacy. And, as mentioned, sometimes the woman got an entry level job in the industry, too.

    I'm very confident that many people, especially the ones close enough to Warren to currently be well-known creators of their own, knew that the rock star Warren was racking up rock-star-like sexual conquests, like Metallica backstage after a concert, except in this case, at comic book convention hotels.

    The "no one knew" excuse doesn't fly with me. Your mileage may vary.

  3. #48
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hairys View Post
    Ellis' forum was his main hunting ground, if you read many of the testimonials on SoManyOfUs and also some of the reporting on the scandal.

    Very often, a posted pic on the forum begat private messages from Warren begat the woman becoming a moderator on the forum begat sexting and sharing nudes before finally meeting up at a convention hotel for physical intimacy. And, as mentioned, sometimes the woman got an entry level job in the industry, too.

    I'm very confident that many people, especially the ones close enough to Warren to currently be well-known creators of their own, knew that the rock star Warren was racking up rock-star-like sexual conquests, like Metallica backstage after a concert, except in this case, at comic book convention hotels.

    The "no one knew" excuse doesn't fly with me. Your mileage may vary.
    I’m not saying no one knew. I’m saying there’s no real way to know who knew what.

    I can’t label MacDonald or anyone else a hypocrite because I don’t know what she knew or suspected.

    My gut would say that most who knew something had no idea of the extent of it, or the nature of the situation as described in the accounts from the group. But that is total speculation on my part and isn’t really any more valid than anyone else’s speculation.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    I’m not saying no one knew. I’m saying there’s no real way to know who knew what.

    I can’t label MacDonald or anyone else a hypocrite because I don’t know what she knew or suspected.

    My gut would say that most who knew something had no idea of the extent of it, or the nature of the situation as described in the accounts from the group. But that is total speculation on my part and isn’t really any more valid than anyone else’s speculation.
    Yes, I agree that people are only responsible for / hypocritical on what they actively knew about. And I would add that it doesn't take much to make amends. For me, at least, a simple statement from Heidi and others that would suffice is: "I knew that a forum that pressured women to post topless pics was wrong, but I didn't say anything because I didn't want to rock the boat. I wanted to maintain a good relationship both with the highly influential Warren and also all the other comics pros that were networking on the forum because that would be good for my career." How many pros who were active on the WEF and reveled in it back then haven't been able to give a simple statement like that? Far too many. And for the subset of those who have now turned their back on Ellis without also pointing the finger first at themselves....well, they deserve to be criticized, imo. Your mileage may vary.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm not sure if "they didn't know" works for me in this case. Its not like it was some super secret forum with strict rules and everything happening in private messages. It was fairly blatant that some weird, and likely inappropriate, things were going on there.

    What changed? Have these people changed their opinions or did they simply realise that Ellis is no longer "influential" so there is no reason to put up with this **** anymore?

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