"The DCAU SHOULD Have Been The Blueprint For The DCEU"

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'll pass. Love the show for what it was but it had its limits and popularized some bad ideas about certain characters.

Pretty much. And, objectively, the BatGod/Bat wank, can get REALLY bad at times.

Is it a place to look at for inspiration? Sure. Should it be the exact basis? Hell naw.

I hear this talking point come up every so often and it's rather annoying, honestly. The DCAU is overall pretty good but it shouldn’t be held up as this end-all and be-all of DC media. It had it's own list of mishandled characters as Snyder does with Superman.

Agreed with all the above. I loved the show as it was coming out and think a lot of it still holds up, but a lot of what you guys are saying is spot on. The show, while expertly executed, did engage in some of the trends that I think were and are bad for DC in the long term, and have proven so in the years since it ended.

Mainly, as many have already noted, the Batman fanboyism in that show was REAL. That show subscribed to one philosophy: Batman basically could NOT be stopped. Batman can do everything. Batman can outsmart and outmaneuver Superman. Batman can dodge Darkseid's Omega Beams. Batman can outsmart the Legion of Doom singlehandedly. Batman is too cool to hang with the rest of the JLA. Batman is always prepared for every scenario and is always the first one to figure everything out. Oh, and Batman can get all the women in the DCU, some of whom he's NEVER been linked to romantically in the comics: Batgirl, Lois Lane, Zatanna, Cheetah, Wonder Woman, etc. They all just can't help but fall for him cuz he's THAT cool (despite that obviously being pretty misogynistic). Oh, and Amanda Waller just HAS to make sure that there's another Batman/Bruce Wayne to continue on his legacy. That's why she did what she did with Terry McGuinness. Because, in her own words, "there's nobody else like Batman."

I mean, I'm not saying Batman shouldn't be impressive. He should be. That's kinda the point. But, making him out as literally the best at EVERYTHING in the DC Universe and the center of everything is just overkill. And that show was certainly guilty of that.

If anything, I'd prefer something like Young Justice serve as a blueprint of the DCEU, if we needed one. It's a bit more balanced in its representation of the DC Universe. It's not the "Batman and Friends" show that the DCAU Justice League was.

well DC revolves around Batman so it makes sense to anchor him as the focus of any shared Universe

No, it really doesn't. You have no idea how many times I've heard the comparison among friends (most non-comic book readers) who say something like "You know why Marvel is better than DC. Because Marvel doesn't just rely on one or two characters. DC only has Batman and Superman. Marvel has so much more than that."

Of course, we know that DC DOES have a lot more to offer than just Batman and Superman. BUT, that's the perception that's popularized by their current strategy of focusing so heavily on Batman (and to a lesser extent Superman). Marvel and the MCU have been able to make characters like Thor, Loki, Captain America, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Falcon, Winter Soldier, Black Panther, etc. mainstream.

Meanwhile, DC has barely been able to make the general audience aware of the rest of the Justice League. The only unqualified success that the DCEU has had in significantly raising a character's profile has been Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman. Before 2017, many people thought Wonder Woman was lame. Now, people love her, even after 1984. So, the lesson is this: DC seriously needs to stop prioritizing and rebooting Batman and Superman or they're gonna be left in the dust.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

DCAU (the new 52 based ones) are some of the best comic book animated movies to have ever been produced. The comics are a better blueprint but the DCAU movies are really quite a treasure. Everything I have seen after JLD Apokalypse War has been bad though.... really bad.

Oh, I can't help but feel the exact opposite. IMO, the New 52-based animated movies were....VERY bad. Everything that DC produced BEFORE Flashpoint Paradox was great, everything between Flashpoint Paradox and Apokalypse War ranged from mediocre to somewhat good. But, it is nice to see DC animated movies return to at least some of their former glory. Justice Society: WWII was excellent.

[Thezmage]

As much as I hate Apokalips War, it was a masterpiece compared to Superman/Batmn: Public Enemies.

As bad as the Snyder movies were, I think their biggest mistake was not just powering through it. Both the MCU and the Monsterverse started with a number of poor to middling films before they hit their stride.

And the DCAU was good but I'm tired of it being treated like the be all and end all of DC adaptations.

[Gaius]

Agreed with all the above. I loved the show as it was coming out and think a lot of it still holds up, but a lot of what you guys are saying is spot on. The show, while expertly executed, did engage in some of the trends that I think were and are bad for DC in the long term, and have proven so in the years since it ended.

Mainly, as many have already noted, the Batman fanboyism in that show was REAL. That show subscribed to one philosophy: Batman basically could NOT be stopped. Batman can do everything. Batman can outsmart and outmaneuver Superman. Batman can dodge Darkseid's Omega Beams. Batman can outsmart the Legion of Doom singlehandedly. Batman is too cool to hang with the rest of the JLA. Batman is always prepared for every scenario and is always the first one to figure everything out. Oh, and Batman can get all the women in the DCU, some of whom he's NEVER been linked to romantically in the comics: Batgirl, Lois Lane, Zatanna, Cheetah, Wonder Woman, etc. They all just can't help but fall for him cuz he's THAT cool (despite that obviously being pretty misogynistic). Oh, and Amanda Waller just HAS to make sure that there's another Batman/Bruce Wayne to continue on his legacy. That's why she did what she did with Terry McGuinness. Because, in her own words, "there's nobody else like Batman."

I mean, I'm not saying Batman shouldn't be impressive. He should be. That's kinda the point. But, making him out as literally the best at EVERYTHING in the DC Universe and the center of everything is just overkill. And that show was certainly guilty of that.

If anything, I'd prefer something like Young Justice serve as a blueprint of the DCEU, if we needed one. It's a bit more balanced in its representation of the DC Universe. It's not the "Batman and Friends" show that the DCAU Justice League was.

Yep. This is one of the most poorly aged things about the DCAU imo (in particular the Batgirl and Batman thing).

Big black mark on the DCAU that it's main legacy on WW was making her a cheerleader for Batman.

[Lightning Rider]

And the DCAU was good but I'm tired of it being treated like the be all and end all of DC adaptations.

This is what annoys me about some of my friends who grew up in the 90's, and don't really read comics but love comic book related media. They just want to see the DCAU recreated on screen. That personality for Superman, that version of Batman, that tone for Flash, etc. I get that Snyder wasn't everyone's cup of tea, totally respect that, but whenever I tried to engage with certain friends about why I liked it & its comic book influences, so many arguments would circle back to essentially "that's not how it was on the cartoon. They should have just done it like on the cartoon." Tired of it.

[SecretWarrior]

Well, the DCAU defined these characters in a way that continues to be well received by millions of people. You'd hear similar if Marvel created a new cinematic universe with new takes on Cap, IM, and Thor. That's what happens with all these properties that get big reboots like Transformers and TMNT

[Frontier]

I don't think people look at it that much as an example for Superman and Wonder Woman any more at least.

[Gaius]

Well, the DCAU defined these characters in a way that continues to be well received by millions of people. You'd hear similar if Marvel created a new cinematic universe with new takes on Cap, IM, and Thor. That's what happens with all these properties that get big reboots like Transformers and TMNT

Being part of part of something popular doesn't always make it good. You'll find Transformer fans who hate the Bay movies more than critics do.

And doesn't mean all it's take were good. For every Batman and John Stewart they had a swing and miss with stuff like Wonder Woman.

[Sacred Knight]

Nah. I mean its better than the movies, but that doesn't mean it should've been a blueprint. There doesn't need to be one solid blueprint from one sole source. The characters are too vast with too many quality materials to do that. In that vein sure, take some inspiration from the AU where something really worked. But don't take everything because it wasn't perfect by a longshot.

[SiegePerilous02]

We don't know enough about this universe's Flash to say Barry never existed. By the time the JL was formed, this universe's Dick Grayson had been Nightwing for years, John Stewart had been a Green Lantern for 15 years and Batman was edging towards his 40's. Given how 'open' the narrative of the DCAU is, there is always room to include characters we haven't seen before to show up.

They did show a brief flashback of Wally in a lab coat getting struck by lightning and chemicals to get his powers, and he's a police scientist. I think by implication he's meant to be the only Flash.

Agreed with all the above. I loved the show as it was coming out and think a lot of it still holds up, but a lot of what you guys are saying is spot on. The show, while expertly executed, did engage in some of the trends that I think were and are bad for DC in the long term, and have proven so in the years since it ended.

Mainly, as many have already noted, the Batman fanboyism in that show was REAL. That show subscribed to one philosophy: Batman basically could NOT be stopped. Batman can do everything. Batman can outsmart and outmaneuver Superman. Batman can dodge Darkseid's Omega Beams. Batman can outsmart the Legion of Doom singlehandedly. Batman is too cool to hang with the rest of the JLA. Batman is always prepared for every scenario and is always the first one to figure everything out. Oh, and Batman can get all the women in the DCU, some of whom he's NEVER been linked to romantically in the comics: Batgirl, Lois Lane, Zatanna, Cheetah, Wonder Woman, etc. They all just can't help but fall for him cuz he's THAT cool (despite that obviously being pretty misogynistic). Oh, and Amanda Waller just HAS to make sure that there's another Batman/Bruce Wayne to continue on his legacy. That's why she did what she did with Terry McGuinness. Because, in her own words, "there's nobody else like Batman."

Which ruined Terry's story because he worked much better as an unrelated kid who became the new Batman.
Also not wild about the unintentional (...?) implication that Dick and Tim couldn't cut it because they didn't have those superior Wayne genes.

I don't think people look at it that much as an example for Superman and Wonder Woman any more at least.

Gadot has definitely surpassed DCAU Wonder Woman.

Though that's a low bar to clear considering the non-entity Timm turned her into.

Being part of part of something popular doesn't always make it good. You'll find Transformer fans who hate the Bay movies more than critics do.

And doesn't mean all it's take were good. For every Batman and John Stewart they had a swing and miss with stuff like Wonder Woman.

Even with John, I've read statements from people more well versed in the comic character that they pretty much invented a whole new character and slapped John's name on him

[Gaius]

Which ruined Terry's story because he worked much better as an unrelated kid who became the new Batman.
Also not wild about the unintentional (...?) implication that Dick and Tim couldn't cut it because they didn't have those superior Wayne genes.

Yeah, I don't know what the point of that was. Since it seemed to go against Waller's entire speech over how Bruce was so special 'cause he didn't have any powers or special genes.

Even with John, I've read statements from people more well versed in the comic character that they pretty much invented a whole new character and slapped John's name on him

Fair enough, I'm not really well-versed in John's pre-cartoon history outside of the basics like I am with WW but he was one of the more praised elements of the DCAU.

[Ra-El]

As a Superman fan, I have my problems with the DCAU.

But nothing compares with what they did with Hawkman. For over a decade I thought he was the lamest of all DC characters, based solely on what I watched in JL/JLU.

Wich brings me to my main problem with the DCAU, Timm and company had no qualms in throwing a charcter under the bus, the locomotive, to prop one of their favs, be it having some female character falling for Batman, Darkseid's shity aim or running over Hawkman to developt Shayera and John romance.
The worst part about the way they used Hawkman, is that they didn't needed too, 9-10 years old me didn't even knew he existed and was totally sold on the the John/Shayera relationship, but they, needless, brought in both versions of Hawkman, the discount Katar, who was a genocidal maniac, and Carter who was a deranged stalker.

[Thezmage]

The thing with the DCAU is that they never had to worry about putting the toys back in the box. They could take great risks with Mister Freeze because they never had to worry about another writer coming in and wanting to use him. That approach created some great takes on those characters but some of them only ended up lasting a handful of episodes. They could mke Carter a crazy stalker because they never had to worry about Carter lasting for another writer.

[John Venus]

If the main criticisms are they swung and missed when it came to Wonder Woman and Hawkman and Batman had too many girls then I think overall the universe did pretty well.

They did show a brief flashback of Wally in a lab coat getting struck by lightning and chemicals to get his powers, and he's a police scientist. I think by implication he's meant to be the only Flash.

True but even if they revealed that there was a different Flash prior to Wally, it wouldn't contradict anything that's established in the universe. The DCAU always had a level of ambiguity so they can fill in the gaps whenever they wanted.

Even with John, I've read statements from people more well versed in the comic character that they pretty much invented a whole new character and slapped John's name on him

You should actually read up on John's comic appearances then. A lot of people will try to dismiss and downplay John's relevance and impact. The DCAU's main contribution to John was giving him a military background and making him the no nonsense character in the show. John's reluctance to have a secret identity and the aforementioned no nonsense attitude were true to the comics :

[Amadeus Arkham]

Which ruined Terry's story because he worked much better as an unrelated kid who became the new Batman.
Also not wild about the unintentional (...?) implication that Dick and Tim couldn't cut it because they didn't have those superior Wayne genes.

I listened to a recent podcast interview with Alan Burnett(who’s retired now) where even he felt this idea was a mistake and refused to accept the idea. Important to note that he didn’t work on JLU.

Edit: Here’s Burnett’s thoughts on this here: It’s around the 1:29 mark.