"The DCAU SHOULD Have Been The Blueprint For The DCEU"

[SecretWarrior]

Swap Bruce and Diana's roles in that episode with Circe and it goes from shit to great.

I liked the episode, but this would've made it better and would've made more sense, given the villain(ess).

[I'm a Fish]

They found interesting ways to give these characters internal conflicts.

Take away WW's conflict with her culture to adhere to her strong personal values, take away her culture shock stemming from her home life, take away her surprise father and lies about her upbringing, and what do you have left? What internal conflict should she have had that wasn't already covered by Superman or Martian Manhunter? If the answer is to make her a perfect paragon, then I think that would have made her the most boring character on the show.

Hawkgirl gets praise, even though she was radically shifted from any comics version, has less mythology and fewer villains referenced, had less screen time, and had fewer episodes centered on her, because the creators gave her interesting internal and external conflicts. She clearly wasn't perfect, and that spoke to people. I can only imagine what the reaction would be if Wonder Woman got her storyline.

Maybe her grappling with how violent the outside world is compared to the utopia she grew up in?

[SecretWarrior]

Maybe her grappling with how violent the outside world is compared to the utopia she grew up in?

They did this on JLU with Ares and to a lesser extent on Justice League with the Vandal Savage stuff. I can't imagine that being more than a 20-40 minute story. She's also trained for violence, so I think she should have some expectation of what the outside world is like in terms of violence.

[I'm a Fish]

They did this on JLU with Ares and to a lesser extent on Justice League with the Vandal Savage stuff. I can't imagine that being more than a 20-40 minute story. She's also trained for violence, so I think she should have some expectation of what the outside world is like.

Didn’t they make a whole movie out of it?

Plus being trained and experiencing it arnt the same thing.

(Plus, I don’t like that episode with Ares. She’s all about peace in the comics but that episode made her learn the lesson of “violence isn’t the answer”, whaaaaat. )

[SecretWarrior]

Didn’t they make a whole movie out of it?

Okay, and that theme was resolved in 75 minutes in the 2009 version and in 120 minutes in the 2017 version. Even if you split either take across an entire season, then what do you do in subsequent seasons? In terms of internal conflict, what do you do with her in the other parts of the season that don't touch on that theme?

[Ra-El]

Okay, and that theme was resolved in 75 minutes in the 2009 version and in 120 minutes in the 2017 version. Even if you split either take across an entire season, then what do you do in subsequent seasons? In terms of internal conflict, what do you do with her in the other parts of the season that don't touch on that theme?

Something else? They problem with the show, imo, isn't that they didn't explered enough themes with the character, but that often to explore those themes they would throw them or supporting character under the bus without giving them moments to shine to would balance it.

[Gaius]

Didn’t they make a whole movie out of it?

Plus being trained and experiencing it arnt the same thing.

(Plus, I don’t like that episode with Ares. She’s all about peace in the comics but that episode made her learn the lesson of “violence isn’t the answer”, whaaaaat. )

Yeah, you can tell from that episode the people behind the show largely completely missed the point of Diana's character conception.

You can also tell from behind the scenes stuff how little actual WW content they looked at.

Rich Fogel: She’s a little bit younger and more innocent than we’ve seen her in the past. She is literally the princess who’s fresh off the island—she’s never been off Themyscira before—and so she has a shock of culture coming out into Man’s World and her expectations of how people should behave towards her are different. It makes her a lot of fun to deal with because she’s haughty, but she’s also innocent. And, she also has issues with her mother.

Bruce Timm: She was probably the most challenging character of all of them in this show. Everyone else we kind of figured out who they were pretty easily, but we had a lot of discussions about Wonder Woman. With Batman, you could easily say “Batman: Year One, that’s the Batman we want to do," but with Wonder Woman we couldn’t really point to any previous version of Wonder Woman and say, “Well, yeah, that’s Wonder Woman.” We had to say, “Well, is she Linda Carter? Is she the George Pérez Wonder Woman? Is she Xena?” And none of those things worked exactly for what we wanted to do with the show. So the personality as just described by Rich is kind of what we came up with.

The emboldened part is pretty much George Perez's Wonder Woman, but you can tell from the execution of his run versus the DCAU who put in more time and effort.

[I'm a Fish]

Okay, and that theme was resolved in 75 minutes in the 2009 version and in 120 minutes in the 2017 version. Even if you split either take across an entire season, then what do you do in subsequent seasons? In terms of internal conflict, what do you do with her in the other parts of the season that don't touch on that theme?

I mean, she’s learning about a whole new culture. I don’t really see a creative writer running out of ideas. (Plus she had 6 decades of comics they could pick ideas from).

And the Martian Manhunter and Superman overlap is surface level. J’ohn lost his family, his people, his planet and not by choice. Diana chose to leave to help complete strangers.
Superman was raised among humans, he basically is one with the exception that he’s incredibly strong. Diana is completely new to everything, she sees every through fresh eyes. Even death is new to her, no one dies where she’s from.

(I’d say Sups and J’ohn have way more in common with each other than either of them with Diana. They both got survivor guilt on some level.)

Also why can’t the 3 of them learn things together? Isn’t that the point of putting them on a team?

[I'm a Fish]

Yeah, you can tell from that episode the people behind the show largely completely missed the point of Diana's character conception.

You can also tell from behind the scenes stuff how little actual WW content they looked at.



The emboldened part is pretty much George Perez's Wonder Woman, but you can tell from the execution of his run versus the DCAU who put in more time and effort.

Wonder Woman needing to learn the violence isn’t the answer is like Batman needing to learn that guns kill people.

Talk about missing the point of the character.

[Alpha]

And there are even Justice League stories centered around Wonder Woman that came out in the era they most reference, the late 90s, early 2000s. Things like A League of One and The Golden Perfect.

[SiegePerilous02]

Take away WW's conflict with her culture to adhere to her strong personal values, take away her culture shock stemming from her home life, take away her surprise father and lies about her upbringing, and what do you have left? What internal conflict should she have had that wasn't already covered by Superman or Martian Manhunter? If the answer is to make her a perfect paragon, then I think that would have made her the most boring character on the show.

The Perez, Jimenez and Rucka runs offer examples of how she can be tested without compromising her origins, mission or the story of her people. Marston, as dated as it is, still offers plenty of potential subversive themes to explore if they are modernized properly. Timm just didn't care and thought the best thing she could be used for was crushing on Batman (because having her crush on Superman was overdone, it never occurred to him that she doesn't need a romance with either). None of this requires making her a perfect paragon, just more than yet another Batman love interest. The "father and lies about her upbringing" stuff is also inherently boring because it's just the cliches she was created to subvert played straight.

There is also the fact that this was an ensemble show that represented the DCU as a whole. In depth character arcs for all the members are not requirements, and once we get to the JLU era she does not even appear in all episodes. All that we're asking is for better adherence to her comic self when she does appear. But the show completely sucks as far she is concerned, no ifs, ands or buts.

Hawkgirl gets praise, even though she was radically shifted from any comics version, had less mythology and fewer villains referenced, had less screen time, and had fewer episodes centered on her, because the creators gave her interesting internal and external conflicts. She clearly wasn't perfect, and that spoke to people. I can only imagine what the reaction would be if Wonder Woman got her storyline.

Hawkgirl is more of a blank slate in the comics than any of the bigger characters were, up until that point she was a good character but mostly an extension of Hawkman. With less audience expectations and making her more independent, they had an opportunity to make her their own in a way they couldn't really with Wonder Woman or Superman.

Just copying Hawkgirl's arc for Diana or leaving us with what we got for her don't have to be our options. It's just that it never occurred to Timm and co to do a story like Hikiteia for her.

The emboldened part is pretty much George Perez's Wonder Woman, but you can tell from the execution of his run versus the DCAU who put in more time and effort.

What's aggravating is that Timm says she has too many versions to narrow down and it makes her difficult, but then says it's easy for Year One to be the model for Batman. But if WW is difficult because of Linda Carter, what about Adam West? Or Keaton/Burton? Or TDKR, O'Neil/Adams, Englehart/Rogers, etc?

[Gaius]

What's aggravating is that Timm says she has too many versions to narrow down and it makes her difficult, but then says it's easy for Year One to be the model for Batman. But if WW is difficult because of Linda Carter, what about Adam West? Or Keaton/Burton? Or TDKR, O'Neil/Adams, Englehart/Rogers, etc?

Well, Timm'and the rest of the crew were all Bat-fans. They know what they wanted adapt.

But yeah, you can copy paste that statement to apply to just about any major comic character whose lived beyond their creator.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Well, Timm'and the rest of the crew were all Bat-fans. They know what they wanted adapt.

But yeah, you can copy paste that statement to apply to just about any major comic character whose lived beyond their creator.

Which kinda speaks to how the DCAU unfolded. Again, while the DCAU was expertly executed and a lot of the episodes were incredibly entertaining and well-written, it is worth pointing out that it was somewhat...limited in its perspective.

I mean, much of the DCAU hinged on the perspectives of only TWO characters: Batman and (to a lesser extent) Superman. That's because those were the only two characters who got solo series BEFORE the Justice League animated series. Albeit, those were two GREAT animated series, but even Bruce Timm would later acknowledge that it was an oversight on their part that they never produced a Wonder Woman animated series...

On top of that, the DCAU kind of ignored every other team that WASN'T the Justice League (i.e. the team with Batman and Superman on it), and characters who weren't historically part of the JLA were either lumped into the JL or were just flat out ignored. For example, the DCAU never introduced characters like Starfire, Raven, Cyborg, Beast Boy, Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, Jade, Obsidian, Robotman, Negative Man, Crazy Jane, Elastic Woman, Blue Beetle, etc. when such characters would be considered at least somewhat important in the DCU in the comics.

And I get that the series was called "Justice League" but even then, a lot of Leaguers were treated as background fodder with hardly any role at all. I don't think Ice was ever properly introduced as she showed up for one second in one episode. Blue Beetle was never even mentioned, despite his role in one of the most famous JL runs of all time. Kimiyo Hoshi Dr. Light has like one scene. We also didn't see a lot of the JLA's actual villains, like Dr. (Arthur) Light, Maxwell Lord (at least not in the same capacity as he was involved in the comics), Neron, Queen Bee, Lord Havok, The Anti-Monitor, etc.

Most of these characters were diminished because, well, they had little or nothing at all to do with Batman and Superman. Most of the DCAU Justice League series was focused on "Aren't Batman and Superman the coolest?", "How are the rest of these characters related to Batman and Superman", or "What are the Joker and Lex Luthor up to?"

Albeit, it's hard to be mad at the show because, as I said, it was so expertly executed and well-written. Right now, I'm kinda torn because I wanna watch an episode, but at the same time I wish it hadn't taken such a narrow view to the DC Universe and had used a more holistic approach.

[John Venus]

Back then, it was cool because it meant that you didn't know which character would take on a lead role in any given episode. It could have been Black Canary, Huntress, Vigilante, Big Barda, Booster Gold, Elongated Man or any of the hundreds of the characters in that universe and if these characters existed in the background, that meant other fan favorites could show up as well.

I think the negative take away from it is that it seemed to have made DC think they could just do one show for their entire line of characters rather than invest in solo shows. So everything from Brave and the Bold to Young Justice has operated on the premise of stuffing the show to gills with every single character from the DCU, with some characters not getting enough breathing room to be fleshed out.

Added to that, the rise of the MCU meant that every show now thinks they need to be set up for whats coming next. Look at what they did with the JSA movie. Instead of spending time building up an underrated superhero team, they spent it on trying to set up the next slate of movies. The MCU may tie into other movies but the a-plot is usually standalone with some connection to the greater overarching universe .

What creators need to take away from JLU and also 2003 Teen Titans is to spend multiple seasons building up their core cast of characters before they launch into expanding their universe.

[John Venus]

I believe the 2009 Wonder Woman movie was their attempt to do solo WW projects after JLU ended along. It made sense since she was the one hero who didn't get a major solo project before JL and the ending of the 09 movie clearly sets up Cheetah as the sequel villain. But then the execs nixed it because 'it didn't sell fast enough' for their liking. I remember the director, Lauren Montgomery, always saying she wanted to do more solo female led projects but execs were only willing to green light Superman, Batman and Justice League projects. Not even the two GL movies did well enough to their liking.