Is X-Men dangerously playing "Gods" ?

[JB]

The mutants, Erik especially, have said for a long time that their place is amongst the stars.
"The future of mutantdom was always up there..." - Magneto, Planet-Sized X-Men

They were stifled from living their true potential because they were hunted and killed. Now they are stepping into what they are, using their gifts to create and to transcend the more primitive division that is Earth.

[Zelena]

The mutants, Erik especially, have said for a long time that their place is amongst the stars.
"The future of mutantdom was always up there..." - Magneto, Planet-Sized X-Men

They were stifled from living their true potential because they were hunted and killed. Now they are stepping into what they are, using their gifts to create and to transcend the more primitive division that is Earth.

I see very well Magneto saying that because, except the times Claremont made him a more sympathetic guy, he was clearly a supremacist: “the mutants are superior to humans, they should lead instead of being hunted”…

Back then, Xavier represented another point of view: “we are all equal, humans and mutants. We have the same rights.” The X-men defended the humans against “bad mutants” and represented “good mutants”. Being protected from “bad mutants”, humanity should accept mutants. It wasn’t about powers but moral. Many flaws in this but, in the past, X-men stories were about adventures not a study in politics.

Xavier’s point of view was more in line with what the Organization of United Nations is trying to achieve: pacifying international relationships and making international laws to prevail.

Clearly, Magneto’s vision rather than Xavier’s dream has been chosen for this run: more melodramatic but less idealistic and inspiring in my point of view. It’s the old “I’m the strongest and I do what I want.” (As the youngest of my family, I have never been a fan of this.) Others opinions are strangely absent…

[Devaishwarya]

Really not trying to be hostile here, okay? But what exactly do you mean by that?

Because one could say that male humans, in general, are stronger than females. So it would be their truth that they get to oppress the females because they can and if the females can't accept that... well, that's on females, not males.

You see the problem with this kind of thinking?

Please, I'm not accusing you of feeling this way. I'm just really curious about what you meant.

That's a gross false equivocation. Because Mutants aren't oppressing anyone.
To my point and hope you understand this because I cannot explain it any clearer: I'm not going to dim my light, squelch my potential, suffer my very existence because it makes a certain subsection of humanity/society feel uncomfortable. And neither should Mutants.

[Devaishwarya]

The mutants, Erik especially, have said for a long time that their place is amongst the stars.
"The future of mutantdom was always up there..." - Magneto, Planet-Sized X-Men

They were stifled from living their true potential because they were hunted and killed. Now they are stepping into what they are, using their gifts to create and to transcend the more primitive division that is Earth.

Boop! There it is!

[JB]

I see very well Magneto saying that because, except the times Claremont made him a more sympathetic guy, he was clearly a supremacist: “the mutants are superior to humans, they should lead instead of being hunted”…

Back then, Xavier represented another point of view: “we are all equal, humans and mutants. We have the same rights.” The X-men defended the humans against “bad mutants” and represented “good mutants”. Being protected from “bad mutants”, humanity should accept mutants. It wasn’t about powers but moral. Many flaws in this but, in the past, X-men stories were about adventures not a study in politics.

Xavier’s point of view was more in line with what the Organization of United Nations is trying to achieve: pacifying international relationships and making international laws to prevail.

Clearly, Magneto’s vision rather than Xavier’s dream has been chosen for this run: more melodramatic but less idealistic and inspiring in my point of view. It’s the old “I’m the strongest and I do what I want.” (As the youngest of my family, I have never been a fan of this.) Others opinions are strangely absent…

The majority of Earth’s nations and now galactic societies have chosen to work with the mutants. That’s better than any standing the mutants have accomplished before.

[PeterParked]

By this point most of you are refusing to see the writing on the wall
What Hickman is doing is obvious, he's done it before, you wanna believe this won't blow up and backfire spectacularly you can believe that all you want, but that is what's going to happen, and that's been made clear since day one.

All Marvel Hickman work has actually an happy ending, both his FF and Avengers/Secret Wars runs. Obviously a lot happens, even the death of the multiverse itself, but in the end both the runs ended with a new positive status quo. I think a lot of people are a bit basic when they think about what could happen, i.e. everything must collapse, while there is no reason Krakoa can’t keep being the mutants’ land even if the QC and Xavier/Magneto plan fails. Maybe it will still be a nation, or maybe not, but generally speaking it doesn’t make any sense to just reset everything and lose all the good ideas Hickman created.

[Grinning Soul]

That's a gross false equivocation. Because Mutants aren't oppressing anyone.
To my point and hope you understand this because I cannot explain it any clearer: I'm not going to dim my light, squelch my potential, suffer my very existence because it makes a certain subsection of humanity/society feel uncomfortable. And neither should Mutants.

I know it was a false equivalent, but people could still make it. And they often do. And that's why I asked what you meant.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I disagree that it justifies some of their decisions, but it's an entirely different discussion.

EDIT: The oppressing part is open to discussion, though. Would you say that not allowing women to vote is oppressive?

[Rev9]

All Marvel Hickman work has actually an happy ending, both his FF and Avengers/Secret Wars runs. Obviously a lot happens, even the death of the multiverse itself, but in the end both the runs ended with a new positive status quo. I think a lot of people are a bit basic when they think about what could happen, i.e. everything must collapse, while there is no reason Krakoa can’t keep being the mutants’ land even if the QC and Xavier/Magneto plan fails. Maybe it will still be a nation, or maybe not, but generally speaking it doesn’t make any sense to just reset everything and lose all the good ideas Hickman created.

I agree despite in story upheavals , Krakoa is here to stay , but I foresee some change, I think the resurrection protocols and the five will probably be done away with.The council will probably become smaller with like 4 members and the likes of Sinister will be expelled.It depends how the story unfolds, if the secret of Moira splits the council ,I foresee Magneto(if he survives)/Exodus moving with some mutants who want to remain immortal to Arrako and continue their empire from there.Krakoa may most likely be lead by the remnants under Scott and Jean.I don't know what will happen to Xavier ,my guess since Moira and him are a thing, in a way she and he may both time travel as exiles to live out their lives before her own birth to keep this continuity intact.All those are just my guesses.We'll have to wait and see.Krakoa will be changed but the new reality despite a few changes will remain.

[gonnagiveittoya]

Yeah, my prediction/hope is that post Hickman Krakoa will follow the X-Mens traditional ideology than everyone following Magnetos. Duggan being at the helm makes me hopeful for that as well.

[Sutekh]

[SNIP long and well-reasoned post] If something would happen to organism of Krakoa there would be no drugs. If something would happen to SWORD and it's teleporter divison there would be no more super metal to give to the galactic communities. If something would happen to Cerebro and/or the handfull of powerfull telepaths to use it, there would be no revival via the cloned bodies.

Basically there are too many ways the upside down pyramid could drop to the sides.

So yes, it's working, but it's much more fragile in theory than the powerful demonstration at the Hellfire Gala would suggest. Because the mutants are not a society of "gods" like the omegas who did the deed, but for most part just people with weird appearance or low key super powers, so the whole thing is a bit of smoke and mirrors too.

Great read Grunty, and I do think it's been a bit too long in coming that we've been seeing more and more of the 'other' mutants, who don't have mover-and-shaker powers, finding a place and a role in Krakoa, particularly since Way of X, with Kurt's fumblings, and Stacy X and Lost, among others, finding roles for themselves that don't involve terraforming or drug farming or realpolitick or any other over-the-top stuff.

Yeah, we've seen a lot of 'non-Omegas' doing their thing, like Kitty and Emma over in Marauders, and Sinister's unwilling minions over in Hellions, and Sage and Beast over in X-Factor, but they've mostly been dealing with Krakoa-specific stuff like delivering drugs and fighting plant people, not so much 'the real things that make a society work' (as Stacy X and Lost are now doing in Way of X, tending babies and giving people a healthy way to let off steam and the like).

I do feel that, with SWORD, we've seen a hint of what non-Omegas, working together, can accomplish, and that's more important to the future of mutantkind than what Magneto or Storm can do single-handed. In Planet, we saw Vulcan burn a tunnel into Mars for the metal core that Magneto moved into place. Big Omega wankery. But it *could* have been done by Rictor, Magma, Avalanche, Petra, etc. working together. Magneto compresses the core to make it hot. More Omega wankery, for the big horny flex. But it *could* have been heated up by Sunfire, Firestar, Match, Magma, Havok, Thunderbird III, Sunspot, Rusty Collins, etc. working together.

Resurrections happened via both Sinister and Apocalypse's (Celestial-stolen) cloning tech, and Jamie Braddock and Elixir have both demonstrably done it single-handed. No real need for 'the Five.' (And while those latter two are indeed Omegas, the cloning-resurrection gimmick worked for Sinister for years before the Omegas got in on the action.)

Cerebro has been used by not just Jean and Xavier, but by Emma and even the Cuckoos. Again, an Omega is *nice,* but hardly a requirement.

And even Krakoa, not really necessary. Forge alone *should* be able to create just about any technology desired. And he's not the only smart mutant out there, I'm sure, even if he tends to be mutant-Tony-Stark and breathe all the oxygen in the room.

The Omegas could disappear tomorrow, go off to their own Dimension X to Omega-Wank till the Space Fire Chicken comes home, and just about everything we've seen in the Age of Krakoa could still happen, just requiring more people working together and less grandstanding and Magneto showing off.

I do wish we saw more rank and file mutants doing stuff, other than drinking or fooling around. Finding out that the drug-farms are run single-handedly by Madrox seems like a waste, when there are hundreds of mutants who kind of are idly lounging around and kind of need something to keep them busy (since quite a lot of them have been villains in the past...). Seeing members of the MLF, Acolytes, Nasty Boys, Gene Nation, Press Gang, Resistants/Mutant Force, etc. actually crewing Marauder boats, or farming medicines, or working in the labs, could give a sense that Krakoa is more of a functioning nation-state, and less of a retirement home for mutant crooks, teetering on the works of a few Omegas and just waiting to collapse under it's own top-heavy imbalance.

[Grunty]

1. Moira reading Irene's diaries means little if Irene put in them only the breadcrumbs she wants Moira to find , leaving the real important stuff for only Mystique to know.I mean it's down to the writers if they want to dumb down Mystique but it seems absurd for Irene to a) just order Mystique to scuttle/destroy Krakoa without any certainty that she would succeed-the fact that she gives her the mission means with a great degree of confidence she knows Mystique won't fail and b) knowing Moira's blindspots it seems unlikely Irene did not give Mystique a blueprint to follow to suceed.

Oh that's a good point.

Especialy since someone like Destiny could play 4th dimensional chess a lot better than a person who merely saw 9 timelines and only to a limited degree.

For all we know Destiny could have left a lot of false leads or downright distractions for Moira specifically in her diaries. Meaning they are a double edged sword for her. On one hand they provide valuable inside into the woman's mind, but they also contain the risk of the person having anticipated Moira doing so.

I'm getting reminded to the "Nice and accurate prophecies of agnes nutter", which made little sense to the casual reader but was exactly organized in a way that the right people would read the right predictions at the correct time.

Though that doesn't mean Mystique would not be able to fail, merely that Destiny might have anticipated Mystique doing so and having additional plans allready in motion or set up to handle it.

I mentioned it before elsewhere, but it could be interesting if Mystique wasn't the only one Destiny instructed, meaning there could be a few suprise involvements in Inferno or following stories.

Like at the end of Inferno everything Mystique tried to do was prevented and Moira starts mocking her having read Destiny's predictions and how she was always one step ahead. In comes Rogue, Destiny and 3 other characters, who worked together to secretly produce a clone body for Destiny and download her mind from Cerebro or the afterlife into it. *dramatic music and thunder*

2.In Hox2 Irene says 'If you try to kill me before I kill you,I will see my end coming and prevent it.Now this is not exactly how it has played out because Irene is not killed but she definitely is not resurrected so it means Irene is still certain that this plot of Moira will be circumvented.

More to this point Irene says 'If you die as a child before your powers manifest-then you will not reincarnate.You simply end' Now some may say this was a threat but then just before Irene saw 10 or 11 lives max for Moira and if she mentioned that as an eventuality that at some point Moira will die as a child , wouldn't it suggest that Irene saw the end of Moira eventually? Obviously that eventual death can only happen if this life of Moira currently also ends and unravels this continuity. I doubt this will happen.I think Xavier and Magneto will find a way to keep Moira from dying in this reality(maybe through time travel to die before her own birth to keep Krakoa reality intact) however Krakoa remaining as is is also unlikely since Irene is so adamant that it has to be destroyed.
All this depends on believing Irene is telling it true, right now from the way Xavier and Magneto are navigating Krakoa I believe that Irene is right, Krakoa in its current form isn't meant to last. It may remain as a nation but maybe some fundamentals like protocols or the quiet council will be lost after Mystique is done with the mission.

A while ago i started to wonder why Destiny in Moira's 3rd life actualy killed her, considering it would have not only erased herself from existence but her entire universe too, something Destiny was fully aware of. Trying to teach someone a lesson is one thing, doing so by essentialy performing suicide on her own universe is a whole different beast.

Especialy since Moira had just finished a "cure" for mutant powers. Which meant Destiny could have simply applied that to Moira and finish the whole thing of then and there for good.

So does that mean Moira is now actualy part of a much larger farther reaching plan by Destiny? Is Krakoa ultimately just her tool to help mutantkind?

That is, if the claims that Moira's mutant power reset the universe are true at all. She could be a precog herself, she might actualy leave universes behind, or she is someones creation and all her memories are fake. To name a few.

Hox/Pox has arguably not given us much to confirm that anything about Moira is actualy true, since any evidence would actualy proof that she is not what is claimed, therefor throwing doubts on her stories.

Imagine the shock of Xavier, Magneto and the reader when Moira is actualy killed, but not only does the universe still exist, but Moira herself suddently comes back from the dead by herself, because someone designed her not to die and her powers have nothing to do with rebooting the universe.

[Rev9]

Oh that's a good point.

Especialy since someone like Destiny could play 4th dimensional chess a lot better than a person who merely saw 9 timelines and only to a limited degree.

For all we know Destiny could have left a lot of false leads or downright distractions for Moira specifically in her diaries. Meaning they are a double edged sword for her. On one hand they provide valuable inside into the woman's mind, but they also contain the risk of the person having anticipated Moira doing so.

I'm getting reminded to the "Nice and accurate prophecies of agnes nutter", which made little sense to the casual reader but was exactly organized in a way that the right people would read the right predictions at the correct time.

Though that doesn't mean Mystique would not be able to fail, merely that Destiny might have anticipated Mystique doing so and having additional plans allready in motion or set up to handle it.

I mentioned it before elsewhere, but it could be interesting if Mystique wasn't the only one Destiny instructed, meaning there could be a few suprise involvements in Inferno or following stories.

Like at the end of Inferno everything Mystique tried to do was prevented and Moira starts mocking her having read Destiny's predictions and how she was always one step ahead. In comes Rogue, Destiny and 3 other characters, who worked together to secretly produce a clone body for Destiny and download her mind from Cerebro or the afterlife into it. *dramatic music and thunder*



A while ago i started to wonder why Destiny in Moira's 3rd life actualy killed her, considering it would have not only erased herself from existence but her entire universe too, something Destiny was fully aware of. Trying to teach someone a lesson is one thing, doing so by essentialy performing suicide on her own universe is a whole different beast.

Especialy since Moira had just finished a "cure" for mutant powers. Which meant Destiny could have simply applied that to Moira and finish the whole thing of then and there for good.

So does that mean Moira is now actualy part of a much larger farther reaching plan by Destiny? Is Krakoa ultimately just her tool to help mutantkind?

That is, if the claims that Moira's mutant power reset the universe are true at all. She could be a precog herself, she might actualy leave universes behind, or she is someones creation and all her memories are fake. To name a few.

Hox/Pox has arguably not given us much to confirm that anything about Moira is actualy true, since any evidence would actualy proof that she is not what is claimed, therefor throwing doubts on her stories.

Imagine the shock of Xavier, Magneto and the reader when Moira is actualy killed, but not only does the universe still exist, but Moira herself suddently comes back from the dead by herself, because someone designed her not to die and her powers have nothing to do with rebooting the universe.

hehehe Mystique entering with Irene and surprise surprise Sinister...I had a thought .Notice how Moira seems scared of Sinister being recruited by Xavier.I always thought it's because of his treachery in life 9 , but his vast knowledge through the Red diamond gossip, suggests that he knows WAAAY more than all the others on QC esp X and M think he does.What if as crazy as it seems- Irene has him in her plans?Maybe he has a diary of hers too and has a role to play in Mystique's grand plan.It is a VERY risky and almost desperate move if he is part of the plans.

[Devaishwarya]

I know it was a false equivalent, but people could still make it. And they often do. And that's why I asked what you meant.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. I disagree that it justifies some of their decisions, but it's an entirely different discussion.

EDIT: The oppressing part is open to discussion, though. Would you say that not allowing women to vote is oppressive?

People who make false equivocations often, are usually wrong because they fail to see the truth either unwillingly or knowingly.
Not allowing women to vote is oppressive. But that is not what's happening here in the MU, and with Planet Arakko's newfound position on a Galactic Council. As far as what I've read so far in the actual comic books.

(I'm not going to waste my time and energy speculating on what's not been written to prove an uninformed point.)

[Grinning Soul]

People who make false equivocations often, are usually wrong because they fail to see the truth either unwillingly or knowingly.
Not allowing women to vote is oppressive. But that is not what's happening here in the MU, and with Planet Arakko's newfound position on a Galactic Council. As far as what I've read so far in the actual comic books.

(I'm not going to waste my time and energy speculating on what's not been written to prove an uninformed point.)

Maybe I am uninformed and you can help me then: who voted for Storm as the regent of the Solar System?

[Rev9]

Maybe I am uninformed and you can help me then: who voted for Storm as the regent of the Solar System?

I don't think there is voting among Krakoans(much less Arraki) seems like an appointment to me ,on what grounds? Go figure..(in story Selene would make much more sense being as ancient as most Arraki and getting her her off the earth where she is always up to no good)