Has there been any word as to why Spencer is leaving?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That isn’t a drastic drop...

2008 -- 105,948 copies from 36 issues.
2009 -- 77,403 from 36 copies
2010 -- 72,663 from 36 copies
2011 -- 70,418 from I guess less about 24 copies (since Slott went to bi-monthly rather than tri-monthly).

Every issue of the Ben Reilly Spider-Man outsold the JMS run.

1) By Ben Reilly Spider-Man do you mean Dan Jurgens' The sensational spider-man which he left because he hated writing Ben and resented never getting to work on Peter? Or do you mean the full Clone Saga from start to end?

2) Did Ben Reilly Spider-Man sell more than all issues JMS put out in his entire lifetime run?

This doesn't make sense.

[RJT]

2008 -- 105,948 copies from 36 issues.
2009 -- 77,403 from 36 copies
2010 -- 72,663 from 36 copies
2011 -- 70,418 from I guess less about 24 copies (since Slott went to bi-monthly rather than tri-monthly).

Well, 77,000x 3 is still way more than 105,000, so I’m not sure what your point is.

[RJT]

And the Ben Reilly issues averaged over 300,000 copies, which is triple what JMS sold.
And the height of the JMS run was only slightly above the reviled Mackie run, so the idea that JMS “saved” Amazing from the doldrums isn’t really all that accurate either.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

And the Ben Reilly issues...

Again are you referring to Dan Jurgens' The Sensational Spider-Man or the entire 2nd Clone Saga?

Well, 77,000x 3 is still way more than 105,000, so I’m not sure what your point is.

They pumped out more issues in a short period.

[RJT]

2008 -- 105,948 copies from 36 issues.
2009 -- 77,403 from 36 copies
2010 -- 72,663 from 36 copies
2011 -- 70,418 from I guess less about 24 copies (since Slott went to bi-monthly rather than tri-monthly).



1) By Ben Reilly Spider-Man do you mean Dan Jurgens' The sensational spider-man which he left because he hated writing Ben and resented never getting to work on Peter? Or do you mean the full Clone Saga from start to end?

2) Did Ben Reilly Spider-Man sell more than all issues JMS put out in his entire lifetime run?

This doesn't make sense.

When Ben Reilly was in Amazing Spider-Man, they averaged 300,000 issues per month. Comichron doesn’t have the sales figures of Sensational. I’d have to dig mine out to find the Statement of Ownership figures for that book. Jurgens left the book because he didn’t like the direction editorial was dictating; it wasn’t because the book wasn’t selling.

And yes, every issue of Amazing that starred Ben Reilly outsold every issue that JMS wrote.

[RJT]

That means they made more money quicker. I’m not sure what your point is.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

When Ben Reilly was in Amazing Spider-Man, they averaged 300,000 issues per month.

Does that include the issues which also had Peter Parker? Or just Ben Reilly all alone by himself monologuing in panels?

[RJT]

Does that include the issues which also had Peter Parker? Or just Ben Reilly all alone by himself monologuing in panels?

It is the average sales of each issue of Amazing released in 1996. They don’t do an issue by issue breakdown. But for your theory to be true. In order for the Ben Reilly solo issues to have sold less than JMS, the two issues starring Peter would have had to have sold over a million copies each to get an average of 300,000 for the year.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

It is the average sales of each issue of Amazing released in 1996.

So when readers were expected that Peter Parker Spider-Man was protagonist and Ben Reilly was prospective sidekick (i.e. the honeymoon period). Ergo, not Ben Reilly Spider-Man just the early 2nd Clone Saga phase then.

[RJT]

So when readers were expected that Peter Parker Spider-Man was protagonist and Ben Reilly was prospective sidekick (i.e. the honeymoon period). Ergo, not Ben Reilly Spider-Man just the early 2nd Clone Saga phase then.

Sensational Spider-Man 0 came out in November of 1995, so I’m not sure what you’re on about. Ben Reilly was Spider-Man until October of 1996.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Sensational Spider-Man 0 came out in November of 1995, so I’m not sure what you’re on about. Ben Reilly was Spider-Man until October of 1996.

Before Clone Saga:
1993 - 592,442

Clone Saga began mid-way (July 1994),
1994 - 353,025

Second Year of Clone Saga
1995 - 234,290

Terminal year
1996 - 216,779

And year after that, here's the drop:
1997 - 159,950

So still wanna declare "Mission Accomplished" above an aircraft carrier? Or talk about the success of Ben Reilly?

[RJT]

Before Clone Saga:
1993 - 592,442

Clone Saga began mid-way (July 1994),
1994 - 353,025

Second Year of Clone Saga
1995 - 234,290

Terminal year
1996 - 216,779

And year after that, here's the drop:
1997 - 159,950

So still wanna declare "Mission Accomplished" above an aircraft carrier? Or talk about the success of Ben Reilly?

These are not the same numbers that I cited on Comichron.
And all those numbers are still higher than JMS’ numbers, so you’re the one who needs to be careful.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

These are not the same numbers that I cited on Comichron.

No because I actually checked your source.

And all those numbers are still higher than JMS’ numbers,

You're familiar with the "How it started versus how it's going" meme:

I think starting from 592,442 before the Saga and leaving the franchise with 159,950, which is a loss of more than a double...and then blithely going that it sold more issues takes a fair bit of gall.

It's like Boomers going on about how they did more with what they had when they benefited from a safety net that milennials and zoomers do not have.

[RJT]

No because I actually checked your source.



You're familiar with the "How it started versus how it's going" meme:

I think starting from 592,442 before the Saga and leaving the franchise with 159,950, which is a loss of more than a double...and then blithely going that it sold more issues takes a fair bit of gall.

.

It did though! Every Ben Reilly issue outsold every JMS issue. You keep ignoring that point and using comparison points of 1992 and 1993.

And for a guy who has been touting his knowledge of Marvel history on every corner of this board for weeks, you seem to be neglecting a very important event in Marvel history that transpired in 1996.

You are correct in that I was citing the “copies printed” number and you’re looking at the “total paid circulation” number, which is probably more accurate as newsstands were able to return unsold copies.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You keep ignoring that point and using comparison points of 1992 and 1993.

Yes, because statistics only make sense in context. To use slang that's become a little dated...duh!!!!

The comics market shrunk badly thanks to the speculator bubble, of which the Clone Saga was both beneficiary and victim. At the same time, the Clone Saga's massive unpopularity when they said Peter was a clone and Ben was the real Spider-Man was completely skated over by you. Ben Reilly had far greater success as sidekick and supporting member than he did as franchise protagonist, which has always been my point. Calling it "Ben Reilly Spider-Man" is disingenuous in extreme.

Consolidation (leaving the title in a better place than when you started) and attrition (the opposite) are things that happen in an ongoing title. Ditko's Spider-Man didn't sell as well as John Romita Sr's for instance but does that mean Romita is more popular or merely that Ditko who started the title and built word of mouth, whose sales rose steadily, especially after the hero graduated high school left the title far better than he found it...which you know he literally found it. So the Spider-Man title has had periods of attrition followed by consolidation. In the case of Clone Saga, it came in a period of consolidation and left the title in high attrition. Some of that is changes in industry, so when JMS came in when the comics market had shrunk more or less to what it is now. In the case of BND, you see attrition year by year, which doesn't vindicate its mission claim that BND would automatically see a sales spike higher than the marriage years, nor generate any exceptional success that vindicates the extreme retcon.

So anyway...to get back on topic, we're still not clear on why Nick Spencer has leaving. Sales generally doesn't seem to be a problem with him, since his first or second year was apparently higher than Slott's first two years, and Slott's final year.