Has there been any word as to why Spencer is leaving?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

In the end all these sales comparison are meaningless, especially because in different moments the market had different sizes, 200k 15 years ago and 50k today are basically the same thing when market size is taken into account. Comparing sales from different eras to gauge appreciations or interest is totally useless and wrong.

This is the point that I've been trying to prove, albeit indirectly by Socratic means, and I am glad that breakthrough has been achieved.

[Kingkalamari]

I think it's a pretty fair stab to say the hellish work schedule drove everyone off this book, also why they are returning with a entire crew of writers trading off. I'm not sure if a Spidey run has had such a massive change of artist issue by issue as Spencer's had, and Ottley leaving seemed pretty foreboding in hindsight. Gleason couldn't even do all of Last Remains like he was billed to do as the main artist post-Ottley departure. I should be clear that none of that is a jab at them, rather the unrelenting schedule ASM has had and poor editorial decisions to make it so rigorous on the artists.

Also this fall is a big passing of the reigns on alotta flagship characters, it's possible that Spencer just opted to exit there and have Spidey be part of the new lineups of staff, especially with the offer he got writing elsewhere.

[Jness]

Edited, didn’t add to convo

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If you really had an issue with "executives who create nothing and whose income derives from them siphoning money from exploitation of IP and unfair labor conditions" then you should have stopped reading Spider-Man comics decades ago.

"Kid, comics will break your heart" - Jack Kirby. There's no ethical consumption in capitalism, and the argument against purchasing comics applies far strongly to buying chocolates which are labored by child slaves in Africa or anything else.

90s characters are popular now that were considered spent or no longer viable (like Deadpool and Venom,

Venom is an '80s character. His popularity was highest in the early 90s (which is a carryover from the '80s anyway). The Symbiote made its debut in SECRET WARS 1984 the biggest Marvel story of the 1980s and Venom made his debut in 1988.

YOU don't like this decision. But you yourself admitted rational reasons why Marvel would be pursuing it.

You think being rational is people not putting their personal attitudes into their decision-making and affecting a professional remote consideration. But in fact people who behave and act professionally are guided by assumptions and expectations of seeming to be professional and of course are guided and driven by the drive and ambition to be a high powered corporate player which would also affect their decision-making. So non-rational or irrational attitudes, or human attitudes, drive their actions as well.

Your insistence that "rationality" has some kind of moral dimension to it has really derailed this conversation.

I was saying that it has a kind of aesthetic dimension. In any case, the conception of "the rational" as completely separate from aesthetics, and from morality for that matter, is in and of itself a false assumption. It's essentially a form of sub-Randian thinking or Social Darwinist thinking if we want to go old school. Rationality has investigated and corrected conventional morality numerous times of course, but that's not the same thing as thinking that a purely rational idea excludes moral considerations completely.

Likewise, I'm not saying "trust Marvel;" my point is that their entire publishing hierarchy has checks and balances against someone behaving "irrationally."

No it doesn't. For that to be true we would have to accept, for instance, that the decades of marginalization of female and non-white characters in comics publishing, both in the pages and behind the scenes, was based on rational considerations, or that exclusion and marginalization has a rational foundation. We would also have to accept that exploiting and screwing over creators has a rational foundation and that there's no point agitating over that.

Now of course, it might be apparent that issues like marginalization and labor are serious issues as opposed to Ben Reilly headlining a Spider-Man event, but again I don't see how after hearing of the industry behaving that way, you can suddenly lapse back to a childlike naivete that the executives ought to be trusted or that there are checks and balances, when what we have is assumptions, office work culture, and corporate thinking from business schools, and so on. I don't get this attitude among comics fans to make separations and divisions and compartmentalization as if the exploitation of labor is completely separate from the most trivial elements of the business, because it isn't.

It wasn't done on the fly, and it wasn't done without consideration for the financial impact it would have on the book and the publishing line.

So is that enough for you? Because that's basically showing up and going with what the top person or other says in the email and so on.

I just refuse to believe that for something as important to their bottom line as their (for all intents and purposes) number one ongoing book, this decision wasn't a considered one.

I am not asking you to believe that the decision wasn't a considered one. I am asking you to reassess the fact that decisions that are considered, that are vetted, and processed by the company and so on is based on dated assumptions, groupthink, and marketing spin, and sometimes simply force (most powerful and influential persons are for this and that, or are sympathetic).

[Jman27]

I think it's a pretty fair stab to say the hellish work schedule drove everyone off this book, also why they are returning with a entire crew of writers trading off. I'm not sure if a Spidey run has had such a massive change of artist issue by issue as Spencer's had, and Ottley leaving seemed pretty foreboding in hindsight. Gleason couldn't even do all of Last Remains like he was billed to do as the main artist post-Ottley departure. I should be clear that none of that is a jab at them, rather the unrelenting schedule ASM has had and poor editorial decisions to make it so rigorous on the artists.

Also this fall is a big passing of the reigns on alotta flagship characters, it's possible that Spencer just opted to exit there and have Spidey be part of the new lineups of staff, especially with the offer he got writing elsewhere.

That’s could be the truth in the manga industry currently the author for Jujutsu Kaisen is on haitus and the work schedule is harder there cause not only they write the story but do the artwork as well on a weekly basis. The artists on amazing have two weeks between issues where other artists have a month it seems.

[NC_Yankee]

I think it’s clear there is a contingent of readers who buy Amazing Spider-Man because they’ve always bought Amazing Spider-Man. And if Marvel is able to parley x-number of months of a Ben Reilly-led Amazing into a solo Ben title after Peter inevitably returns, that will be a success for them. They’ll have successful expanded the franchise. Both companies have done this trick before; Azrael took over the Batman titles for a year, and then was able to have a 100-issue run of a solo title after Bruce came back. Both Steel and Superboy had successful runs after the Reign of Supermen storyline. Marvel has done Ironheart and Superior Spider-Man books after those characters turns in the main book. Rhodey has mixed success headlining his own series, but War Machine wouldn’t be a character in the MCU right now if not for his introduction as the “New Iron Man” back in the 80s. There are probably a bunch more examples that I’m not thinking of right now. I bet if we got this crap from Ditko years ago, we would not even have Spider-Man today.

Talking about “why don’t they use Miguel?” is fine for fan talk, but it isn’t evidence that Marvel is being stubborn or isn’t doing this for economic reasons. That they didn’t pick the character that you like isn’t evidence that they’re making an “irrational decision.” They might be right and this will be successful, or they might be wrong and it bombs, but they are only doing it because they think the former will happen.

And letÂ’s also not discount the idea that Zeb Wells came in with a specific idea for using Ben, and Marvel thought it would work in the aftermath of the Spencer run. For all we know Marvel asked for pitches for a replacement Spider-a man storyline and they liked the Ben pitch the best.
I just refuse to believe that a multimillion dollar publishing company would make decisions capriciously or out of spite or stubbornness or whatever else. There are too many people that have to green light something like this, and most of them do not care about the same things we care about. If Nick Lowe does something in Spider-Man that leads to a huge decrease in sales, he runs the risk of losing his job. Why would he intentionally tank the book?

That isnÂ’t to say this is necessarily a good idea or that it is a guarantee of success. But the absolute ignorance some posters have about how publishing works is staggering. Nobody at Marvel is green lighting such a big change on their top book unless they believe it will be successful.

This is not an issue of a Miguel being a character “I Like” the character I like best as Spider-Man is Peter and as I said yesterday, comparing him to the others is like comparing Marilyn Monroe to her imitators like Jayne Mansfield. One problem I have with Marvel is the disrespect they show for Peter Parker. I do not care if it is Dan Slott and the Charlie Brown comparison, or the Nick Spencer “Damsel In Distress” or Nick Lowe’s purpose of Peter which is to basically burden him down. Here is what I do not get, if Clone Saga would have been a success I could understand reworking and repeating the formula ( although I have learned with movies that generally speaking originals are better then remakes). But the clone BS just does not work and that includes the Clone Saga, Clone Conspiracy Clones in the Mile and last year’s Gwen book and now the return of Ben. What makes Marvel think this time will be any better? In my humble opinion it is stubbornness coupled with being lazy instead of creative

[Dzika_Sowa]

I'm kinda sad, that he's leaving, but as long as he tells the story that he wanted to - and finishes it his way, I have no problem with that. It's a solid run overall, and big things are still going to happen.

If he's leaving because he couldn't undo OMD or something like that? Is sucks.

Let's wait for interviews.

[Kingkalamari]

I'm kinda sad, that he's leaving, but as long as he tells the story that he wanted to - and finishes it his way, I have no problem with that. It's a solid run overall, and big things are still going to happen.

If he's leaving because he couldn't undo OMD or something like that? Is sucks.

Let's wait for interviews.

Unless Spencer was planning on burning bridges with Marvel and never writing for them again, I wouldn't except him to speak out on anything in particular anytime soon.

[NC_Yankee]

Unless Spencer was planning on burning bridges with Marvel and never writing for them again, I wouldn't except him to speak out on anything in particular anytime soon.

Spencer will speak again: However it will be the same type of flowery comments that Lowe used to describe him. There are very few celebrities who can say FU to a former employer and get away with it. John Wayne and Columbia was one, Clark Gable and MGM was another, more recently Tom Cruise and Warner Bros. Nick Spencer is not on that level.

[Vortex85]

Not sure if this point has been raised yet, but I was thinking this morning how, even if Spencer goes through with the revelation that Kindred wants to give Peter, he isn't going to have much time if any to show any fallout or consequences on it.

The book immediately goes to other writers after the next arc who may or may not care to address what Spencer cared about addressing, so even if we get a revelation that is important, what guarantee is there that it ever results in a meaningful consequence for Peter the way Spencer had wanted it to?

I can't imagine wanting to have a big reveal for your whole run and then immediately handing the book over to other writers after the reveal. I mean, if I wanted a big moment for Peter, I'd like to write the aftermath so that it means what I would have wanted it to. In this way, it's dumb that we didn't have the climax with Kindred earlier in the run. Unless saving the reveal for the very end is what Spencer wanted, which, I don't understand at this point why a writer would want that.

[NC_Yankee]

Not sure if this point has been raised yet, but I was thinking this morning how, even if Spencer goes through with the revelation that Kindred wants to give Peter, he isn't going to have much time if any to show any fallout or consequences on it.

The book immediately goes to other writers after the next arc who may or may not care to address what Spencer cared about addressing, so even if we get a revelation that is important, what guarantee is there that it ever results in a meaningful consequence for Peter the way Spencer had wanted it to?

I can't imagine wanting to have a big reveal for your whole run and then immediately handing the book over to other writers after the reveal. I mean, if I wanted a big moment for Peter, I'd like to write the aftermath so that it means what I would have wanted it to. In this way, it's dumb that we didn't have the climax with Kindred earlier in the run. Unless saving the reveal for the very end is what Spencer wanted, which, I don't understand at this point why a writer would want that.

You are exactly right ( think Dan Slott and ASM 801) I doubt we will ever know the truth about what really happened, but I think Spencer was forced out by Marvel. Is Marvel to blame? Spencer? Or most likely both? I suspect that when Spencer speaks it will be the same kind of flowery BS that Lowe used to describe the Spencer run. Why? Unless you are on a level far above Spencer, you do not trash a boss on the way out the door.

[Mister Mets]

Not sure if this point has been raised yet, but I was thinking this morning how, even if Spencer goes through with the revelation that Kindred wants to give Peter, he isn't going to have much time if any to show any fallout or consequences on it.

The book immediately goes to other writers after the next arc who may or may not care to address what Spencer cared about addressing, so even if we get a revelation that is important, what guarantee is there that it ever results in a meaningful consequence for Peter the way Spencer had wanted it to?

I can't imagine wanting to have a big reveal for your whole run and then immediately handing the book over to other writers after the reveal. I mean, if I wanted a big moment for Peter, I'd like to write the aftermath so that it means what I would have wanted it to. In this way, it's dumb that we didn't have the climax with Kindred earlier in the run. Unless saving the reveal for the very end is what Spencer wanted, which, I don't understand at this point why a writer would want that.

The idea of climaxes might be a different between fans and professionals.

The pros like setting stuff up, while fans don't pay as much attention to set up (partially because spoilers reveal where the story's going anyway.) Fans get interested in consequences, while the pros seem to be more eager to set up the next big thing. Dan Slott didn't want to show Peter mourning Flash Thompson; he wanted to write new books at that point. It can be hard for fans to imagine because for us reading a book takes about ten minutes; a TPB takes an hour. For a professional, a script they're not invested in is a week (if not more) they could be devoting to something they're passionate about.

We could see One More Day as an example of this. The earlier chapters were there to show how hopeless the situation was for Peter, but fans were interested in the deal with Mephisto, and with the consequences.

A reason for this may be that people working in comics have so much time considering what's going on next, that when the story comes out, they're not eager to spend more time on the fallout.

[Vortex85]

The idea of climaxes might be a different between fans and professionals.

The pros like setting stuff up, while fans don't pay as much attention to set up (partially because spoilers reveal where the story's going anyway.) Fans get interested in consequences, while the pros seem to be more eager to set up the next big thing. Dan Slott didn't want to show Peter mourning Flash Thompson; he wanted to write new books at that point. It can be hard for fans to imagine because for us reading a book takes about ten minutes; a TPB takes an hour. For a professional, a script they're not invested in is a week (if not more) they could be devoting to something they're passionate about.

We could see One More Day as an example of this. The earlier chapters were there to show how hopeless the situation was for Peter, but fans were interested in the deal with Mephisto, and with the consequences.

A reason for this may be that people working in comics have so much time considering what's going on next, that when the story comes out, they're not eager to spend more time on the fallout.

I guess it's possible that Spencer really cared about the mystery and not the fallout. Like, I could relate it to my own tendency to want to program something but I don't know how to do it. The fun is solving the problem and figuring out how to do it, then once I've figured it out, the boring part is then implementing the solution. I'd rather move on at that point, LOL.

Maybe Spencer was more interested in creating a mystery with an answer and working up to the answer, and not so much what would happen after the answer was determined.

Although as a reader it's more about what happens next as a result, because I want to see what happens next. Hey, if Spencer is a reader, maybe he wants to see what happens next too, and not tell it himself.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Not sure if this point has been raised yet, but I was thinking this morning how, even if Spencer goes through with the revelation that Kindred wants to give Peter, he isn't going to have much time if any to show any fallout or consequences on it.

The book immediately goes to other writers after the next arc who may or may not care to address what Spencer cared about addressing, so even if we get a revelation that is important, what guarantee is there that it ever results in a meaningful consequence for Peter the way Spencer had wanted it to?

I can't imagine wanting to have a big reveal for your whole run and then immediately handing the book over to other writers after the reveal. I mean, if I wanted a big moment for Peter, I'd like to write the aftermath so that it means what I would have wanted it to. In this way, it's dumb that we didn't have the climax with Kindred earlier in the run. Unless saving the reveal for the very end is what Spencer wanted, which, I don't understand at this point why a writer would want that.

We have to wait for the end of Spencer's run to see what it does. Let's not presume what the conclusion will be and judge the run based on those presumptions. That would not be fair.

In any case, since Quesada, Marvel has generally followed a 'toys back in the box' idea where essentially at the end of the run, the next writer has full say whether they can follow the set-up at the end or simply skirt it at go their own way. So comics runs these days tend to be disjunctive, feel discontinuous and set-ups from previous runs don't always carry on the way it did before where the idea was you to start with the setup given to you, work around it to one to your liking and go from there. It's a general tendency that comics runs across Marvel titles rarely follow "consequences" so much over the last two decades. That typifies Quesada's lackadaisical approach on the whole.

It must be pointed that Spencer didn't do much to dwell on Dan Slott's set-up at the start of the run. In one chapter, he had Peter removed from the Daily Bugle Science Job, he had Peter-MJ get back together despite them pettily sniping at each other through most of Slott's run and having toxic exchanges in Go Down Swinging...and none of that stuff is acknowledged. Spencer begins with a flashback to Fraction, conjures the emotional memory to that, and continues with that association rather than what he's been given.

[Somecrazyaussie]

That’s could be the truth in the manga industry currently the author for Jujutsu Kaisen is on haitus and the work schedule is harder there cause not only they write the story but do the artwork as well on a weekly basis. The artists on amazing have two weeks between issues where other artists have a month it seems.

Top Mangaka usually employ assistants who help with the art (usually applying screentone and background work). But those poor buggers have such a relentless turn around each week it is ridiculous. Especially since some manga can have up to 20 pages of content.