Who is the best Spider-man

[NC_Yankee]

First, I wish we could start using phrases like "Which is your preference?" rather than ideas like "best."

Like, I don't think my favorite Wes Anderson movie is his best movie, y'know?

Regardless, I have preferred Ben since I was like 10 years old. Certainly aesthetic things like his cool costume helped, but to me, Ben is great because he's like Peter+ in that he has everything thay makes Peter Parker a great character, but with the bonus of some heavy existential drama built-in due to his clone status. Those existential questions about purpose and identity were and still are incredibly meaningful to me, which is why I've always enjoyed reading about Ben, even more than Peter.

-Pav, who knows Ben doesn't exist without Peter though...

We all have preferences: I prefer MJ to Gwen or anyone else and Arizona State to Arizona. But as far as “The BEST” is concerned I am still waiting to see the great Ben story and you need something great to be the best.

[HypnoHustler]

We all have preferences: I prefer MJ to Gwen or anyone else and Arizona State to Arizona. But as far as “The BEST” is concerned I am still waiting to see the great Ben story and you need something great to be the best.

‘The Lost Years’ mini by JM DeMatteis and JRJr is a great Ben story. I could name a few others that I personally think are great, but that would be the most objectively great one.

[NC_Yankee]

‘The Lost Years’ mini by JM DeMatteis and JRJr is a great Ben story. I could name a few others that I personally think are great, but that would be the most objectively great one.

I have seen quite a few lists of great Spider-Man stories and that one never makes the list. Even modern stories like Ends Of The Earth, Spider Island and Life Story have made it ( I am not even including personal favorites like Gibbon or RYV).

[HypnoHustler]

I have seen quite a few lists of great Spider-Man stories and that one never makes the list. Even modern stories like Ends Of The Earth, Spider Island and Life Story have made it ( I am not even including personal favorites like Gibbon or RYV).

And? Most of those lists that include dreck like Superior or ‘EotE’ are written by younger columnists who are more familiar with modern runs like the Slott era and are biased towards stuff post-JMS or even post-Miles (mostly because they’ve barely read anything that predates it). I also don’t see other older and undeniably great stories like the ‘Spider-Man versus Wolverine’ special or ‘The Longest Hundred Yards’ or even ‘The Child Within’ on those lists anymore. Hopefully you can draw your own opinion instead of relying on some comic hipster’s listicles. I don’t know anyone in my comic reading circle who would say ‘Ends of the Earth’ is a great story. But I have seen ‘Lost Years’ get a lot of praise over the years, even from those who don’t generally like Ben or the Clone Saga. Why don’t you read it and judge for yourself? And if you have read it, surely you can see its merits.

[NC_Yankee]

And? Most of those lists that include dreck like Superior or ‘EotE’ are written by younger columnists who are more familiar with modern runs like the Slott era and are biased towards stuff post-JMS or even post-Miles (mostly because they’ve barely read anything that predates it). I also don’t see other older and undeniably great stories like the ‘Spider-Man versus Wolverine’ special or ‘The Longest Hundred Yards’ or even ‘The Child Within’ on those lists anymore. Hopefully you can draw your own opinion instead of relying on some comic hipster’s listicles. I don’t know anyone in my comic reading circle who would say ‘Ends of the Earth’ is a great story. But I have seen ‘Lost Years’ get a lot of praise over the years, even from those who don’t generally like Ben or the Clone Saga. Why don’t you read it and judge for yourself? And if you have read it, surely you can see its merits.

That is not true. Death of Jean DeWolffe, Death of Gwen Stacy, Master Planner trilogy Kid Who Collected Spider-Man Kraven’s Last Hunt and Juggernaut are always found on top lists. Those are timeless classics: The stories that are on the bottom are. 1: Clone Saga. 2: Shed. 3: Year One. 4: The Other. 5:OMD. 6: BND. 7: Queen Pin. 8: Sins Past. I am certain Abrams will be joining that list. I did not even include Silk as much as I dislike it because it does not pop up.

[HypnoHustler]

That is not true. Death of Jean DeWolffe, Death of Gwen Stacy, Master Planner trilogy Kid Who Collected Spider-Man Kraven’s Last Hunt and Juggernaut are always found on top lists. Those are timeless classics:

Yes, they are. And yet you didn’t mention any of the stories I mentioned in my post. Wouldn’t you agree they’re great as well? And wouldn’t you agree they’re often omitted from ‘top Spidey’ lists nowadays? I rest my case.

(Also, “great” isn’t synonymous with “top.” There’s probably been over a hundred “great” Spidey stories, but most lists only give the top 10 or 20. I think you and I can both agree ‘Ends of the Earth’ wouldn’t be in the top 10, 100, or probably even 500… so any list that has that, you can immediately dismiss)

In regards to your hastily added edit:

The stories that are on the bottom are. 1: Clone Saga. 2: Shed. 3: Year One. 4: The Other. 5:OMD. 6: BND. 7: Queen Pin. 8: Sins Past. I am certain Abrams will be joining that list. I did not even include Silk as much as I dislike it because it does not pop up.

It seems you can’t address my point and suffer from CSDS (otherwise known as Clone Saga Derangement Syndrome). The Clone Saga is not one story. It’s a bunch of stories strung together over two years; some of which are terrible, some are just okay, and some are, yes, great. You asked for a great Ben Reilly story. I gave you one. Your response was it wasn’t on some top 10 lists you read. Just be honest and admit you haven’t read it and don’t know whether it’s great or not.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=HypnoHustler;5606574]Yes, they are. And yet you didn’t mention any of the stories I mentioned in my post. Wouldn’t you agree they’re great as well? And wouldn’t you agree they’re often omitted from ‘top Spidey’ lists nowadays? I rest my case.

(Also, “great” isn’t synonymous with “top.” There’s probably been over a hundred “great” Spidey stories, but most lists only give the top 10 or 20. I think you and I can both agree ‘Ends of the Earth’ wouldn’t be in the top 10, 100, or probably even 500… so any list that has that, you can immediately dismiss)[/QUO
When you see top 10 stories, the Death of Gwen Stacy and the other 5 timeless classics I mentioned almost always make that list, and not one of them is a Slott story. I can safely add Back In Black, Amazing Fantasy 15 and The Conversation to that list. As for Slott, his best story might be Spider Island and that is maybe top 20. Gibbon might make it as well. I am not as big on Life Story as others but it pops up on lots of lists. The bad list ( including Clone Saga) is generally agreed upon.

[HypnoHustler]

Yes, the same evergreen 5 or 6 choices pre-2000. They are classics, but they’re also extremely well known and cliched picks. You know someone is a new or casual Spidey reader when their list only includes ‘Master Planner’, ‘KLH’, ‘Death of DeWolff’, ‘Night Gwen Died’, and the Stern Juggernaut story (you forgot to mention the obligatory inclusion of ‘Amazing Fantasy #15’). Then the other 5 picks will all be post-BND or at least post-JMS (maybe with a couple Ultimate stories thrown in) and you know the list isn’t worth the bandwidth of the webpage. There’s dozens and dozens of other great Spidey stories from the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s I never see listed; such as ASM#400, Spec#200, Spec# 189, those early Venom issues, all the Roger Stern stories NOT starring Juggernaut, ‘Whatever Happened to Crusher Hogan?’, ‘The Longest Hundred Yards’, ‘The Child Within’, the Fire-Lord beat down, ‘The Commuter Cometh’, all the Lee/Ditko Green Goblin stories, the Lee/Romita ‘Lifeline’ tablet storyline and so on, and so on… make your own list. There are some stories I mentioned above I would personally rank higher than ‘Night Gwen Died’ or ‘Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut’…. But what do I know? I’m just a guy who has been reading Spidey for 35 years and I’m not paid to write lists every week on a website.

[NC_Yankee]

Yes, the same evergreen 5 or 6 choices pre-2000. They are classics, but they’re also extremely well known and cliched picks. You know someone is a new or casual Spidey reader when their list only includes ‘Master Planner’, ‘KLH’, ‘Death of DeWolff’, ‘Night Gwen Died’, and the Stern Juggernaut story (you forgot to mention the obligatory inclusion of ‘Amazing Fantasy #15’). Then the other 5 picks will all be post-BND or at least post-JMS (maybe with a couple Ultimate stories thrown in) and you know the list isn’t worth the bandwidth of the webpage. There’s dozens and dozens of other great Spidey stories from the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s I never see listed; such as ASM#400, Spec#200, Spec# 189, those early Venom issues, all the Roger Stern stories NOT starring Juggernaut, ‘Whatever Happened to Crusher Hogan?’, ‘The Longest Hundred Yards’, ‘The Child Within’, the Fire-Lord beat down, ‘The Commuter Cometh’, all the Lee/Ditko Green Goblin stories, the Lee/Romita ‘Lifeline’ tablet storyline and so on, and so on… make your own list. There are some stories I mentioned above I would personally rank higher than ‘Night Gwen Died’ or ‘Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut’…. But what do I know? I’m just a guy who has been reading Spidey for 35 years and I’m not paid to write lists every week on a website.

You have read more then me because I took a long lay-off after Silk. I am a big fan of the Tablet series as well as Requiem, Sinister Six ( original) To Have and Hold, ASM 122 and Marvel Team Up Spider-Man and Red Sonja, but I tried to keep personal favorites out of the discussion.

[HypnoHustler]

You have read more then me because I took a long lay-off after Silk. I am a big fan of the Tablet series as well as Requiem, Sinister Six ( original) To Have and Hold, ASM 122 and Marvel Team Up Spider-Man and Red Sonja, but I tried to keep personal favorites out of the discussion.

‘To Have and to Hold’ is from the Matt Fraction ‘Sensational’ annual, right? And it’s not on many lists nowadays (occasionally I’ll see it). I would agree it’s great! And that’s my point. Don’t worry about whether a story is on someone’s top list, because chances are there’s thousands of Spidey stories they haven’t read. Most of them are under pressure to pump out lists for different characters every week. You be the judge of greatness. I’m not trying to mislead you. ‘The Lost Years’ mini is a great read and anyone who doesn’t read it is missing out. It has very little to do with clone mythology and is mostly a psychological drama with Ben going up against the Salt Lake City mob while being stalked by Kaine. All with gorgeous JRJr art. I promise if you read it, you would enjoy it… and you could still go on hating 90% of the clone saga, but that particular story is a good story. (Also, it’s by DeMatteis, the same guy who wrote KLH, so you know you’re getting quality…)

[Revolutionary_Jack]

‘To Have and to Hold’ is from the Matt Fraction ‘Sensational’ annual, right? And it’s not on many lists nowadays (occasionally I’ll see it). I would agree it’s great! And that’s my point. Don’t worry about whether a story is on someone’s top list, because chances are there’s thousands of Spidey stories they haven’t read. Most of them are under pressure to pump out lists for different characters every week. You be the judge of greatness. I’m not trying to mislead you. ‘The Lost Years’ mini is a great read and anyone who doesn’t read it is missing out. It has very little to do with clone mythology and is mostly a psychological drama with Ben going up against the Salt Lake City mob while being stalked by Kaine. All with gorgeous JRJr art. I promise if you read it, you would enjoy it… and you could still go on hating 90% of the clone saga, but that particular story is a good story.

The Lost Years is indeed an excellent comic and among the pearls amid the morass of the Clone Saga.

I feel it's best appreciated as YA indie-graphic novel about a hobo and a drifter nominally set in a superhero story, but it's definitely excellent.

[Dzika_Sowa]

Deep down, we all know that Italian Spider-Man is the only one, true Spider-Man.

At least in Italy.

[HypnoHustler]

The Lost Years is indeed an excellent comic and among the pearls amid the morass of the Clone Saga.

I feel it's best appreciated as YA indie-graphic novel about a hobo and a drifter nominally set in a superhero story, but it's definitely excellent.

See, if even Jack can say it’s good… the only problem is how to get it. Maybe on the Marvel App or ComiXology.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

See, if even Jack can say it’s good… the only problem is how to get it. Maybe on the Marvel App or ComiXology.

As I said Sturgeon's Law cuts both ways...not everything before the 2nd Saga was great, not everything during it is bad.

For me it's like finding a few decent songs in a terrible album. The Rolling Stones put out a terrible album called "Her Satanic Majesties Request" which generally has some of their worst stuff but also three songs "2000 Man, 2000 Lightyears from Home, She's a Rainbow" that's among their best works. But again the presence of some good tunes doesn't mean the album as a whole is suddenly in the same breadth as "Let it Bleed, Exile on Main Street". [Insert any other popular musician as a substitute if these references don't come to anyone here].

So The Lost Years, along with The Gift (ASM#400) ranks high...and basically anything JMD wrote in that time. I think JMD's literary sensibility was misused and that led to confusions between him and the other guys who weren't on his level (which given that this is JMD is a common occurrence for him).

You know one funny thing about Into the Spider-Verse, is that everyone says that the Blonde Peter in that movie is a reference to Ben Reilly while the Peter B. Parker is the real Peter...except Ben Reilly in The Lost Years is literally the "janky old broke hobo Spider-Man". So Peter B. Parker in ITSV at least at the start is closer to Ben Reilly in the Lost Years.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I have seen quite a few lists of great Spider-Man stories and that one never makes the list. Even modern stories like Ends Of The Earth, Spider Island and Life Story have made it ( I am not even including personal favorites like Gibbon or RYV).

Those stories are popular because they were event level with added promotion. Popular doesn't always equate to greatness. The Fast and Furious films are popular (I enjoy them) but even I can tell you they aren't great movies.

But HypnoHustler is right in that The Lost Years is probably the greatest character piece for Ben. In saying that, I also have a soft spot for The Exile Returns when he takes on Venom and manages to beat him solo. Guess Revelations is also good for his heroic death.

The Lost Years is overlooked because it was a separate mini-series and was part of The Clone Saga. Which most fan, unless they were reading as it was coming out, won't touch for all the money in the world. That's despite the initial act of the story being good stuff.