Hades and his Spectres (Saint Seiya) vs The armies of Apokolips (DC Post crisis)

[TerryAce]

Hades, God of the Afterlife, in his quest to destroy humans forever, hears tell of "new gods". He invades Apokolips, intending to make them all his servants for the next Holy War.

Darkseid....is not a fan of that plan.

[Nik Hasta]

Aren't Saint Seiya character like... lightspeed and beyond as default?

Which would mean a wild blitz, no?

[Cody]

Aren't Saint Seiya character like... lightspeed and beyond as default?

Which would mean a wild blitz, no?

Just lightspeed, only gods, humans who have reached the 9th sense(only 2 in the entire franchise thus far), humans who activate a miracle(which is a hundred percent plot reliant save for Seiya)and/or use a God cloth are beyond light, and only slightly at that. They have attacks that can do damage to class 100 bricks just fine, and even though they aren't class 100 bricks themselves despite havibg some form of super strength, their physical attacks still do comparable damage to that of a class 100 brick based on this:





So yeah, they kind of stomp.

[Cody]

But it should be noted that only a handful of spectres are actually that strong and fast, the vast majority are nowhere near, and will likely be in for a bad time. And if this is current Darkseid, then Hades will be needed to take him down, as none of the Spectres will have the oomph to harm him.

[Nik Hasta]

Not disputing the stomp here but, how is that scan indicative of producing effects synonymous with Class 100 strength?

There's the shot of planets shattering but that is illustrative imagery rather than literal unless I'm misreading something. Seiya's dialogue speaks more to an ability to bypass durability and destroying things on an atomic level which is very potent but isn't evidence of Class 100 strength.

[FrenchGemini]

Aren't Saint Seiya character like... lightspeed and beyond as default?

Which would mean a wild blitz, no?

Not quite.

The Three Judges (Rhadamanthys, Aiakos and Minos) certainly are at that level, given that Rhadamanthys was consistently able to fight Gemini Kanon, and Aiakos was about to kill the very same Kanon IIRC (it's been a while, I'll need to recheck some scans) when Ikki intervened (and gave us the infamous "to defeat your speed, I just have to surpass it" speech...). I think it's reasonable to assume that Hades himself is at that level of speed, since he was able to handle the God clothed main characters. There are also a few Specters, like Papillon Myu, that were able to fight a Gold Saint (Aries Mu, who won because Taurus Aldebaran pulled off a "You are already dead" attack on Myu before he got killed himself). Those guys should indeed be able to blitz most of the Apokolips fodder all the way to Darkseid's couch... throne, I mean throne. Also, are Hypnos and Thanatos invited to that fight as well (they weren't mentioned, since they are minor gods, and not specters, but they are still part of Hades' army)?

However, there is also fodder that got casually Galaxian Exploded by Kanon, and IIRC it's heavily implied (but not always shown) that the other surviving characters on Athena's side (Shaka, Dohko, the main Bronze boys, and Athena herself) were quite easily defeating non-Judge specters left and right. I don't think those guys are significantly above Silver Saint-level (Mach 2 to 5 speed), and I believe they are a significant part of the 108 Specters. Have to reread some scans to confirm (as I said, it's been a while).

EDIT: Damned, blitzed by Cody

[FrenchGemini]

Not disputing the stomp here but, how is that scan indicative of producing effect synonymous with Class 100 strength?

There's the shot of planet shattering but that is illustrative imagery rather than literal unless I'm misreading something. Seiya's dialogue speaks more to an ability to bypass durability and destroying things on an atomic level which is very potent but isn't evidence of Class 100 strength.

Yes, the planet thing is imagery (except for Hades, who was explicitly moving planets as part of the Greatest Eclipse). The easiest big destructive feat to evaluate Saint Seiya characters is Lizard Misty (an average Silver Saint, basically a gnat to the likes of the Gold Saints and Hades' Judges) creating an earthquake to bury the Bronze boys under Mount Fuji.

Poseidon's pillars were pretty solid themselves, requiring the Libra weapons (which are strong enough to destroy a -273°C Freezing coffin) to destroy them

[Cody]

Not disputing the stomp here but, how is that scan indicative of producing effects synonymous with Class 100 strength?

There's the shot of planets shattering but that is illustrative imagery rather than literal unless I'm misreading something. Seiya's dialogue speaks more to an ability to bypass durability and destroying things on an atomic level which is very potent but isn't evidence of Class 100 strength.

Its to explain the physical attacks impact specifically on an atomic level. It's the series way of explaining how they can strike with such damage despite being, at best, class 50-70 in lifting ability(with the exception of strength based characters like Taurus). The pillar in question for example was too durable for the Libra weapons to even scuff, despite the fact that they are stated to be capable of destroying stars and planets.

The tougher the object, the more Cosmo/Prana(another character stated that it was also known as Prana, which i guess means it is also Ki/Chi)a Saint needs to destroy it via attacking it on an atomic level:

[Cody]

Not quite.

The Three Judges (Rhadamanthys, Aiakos and Minos) certainly are at that level, given that Rhadamanthys was consistently able to fight Gemini Kanon, and Aiakos was about to kill the very same Kanon IIRC (it's been a while, I'll need to recheck some scans)

Almost did, until Rada saved him as he wanted to kill him on his own and finish their one on one duel.

when Ikki intervened (and gave us the infamous "to defeat your speed, I just have to surpass it" speech...).

Yeah that one was weird to me as the Judges are supposed to be comparable to Gold Saints who have obtained the 8th sense, making them a bit stronger than a "normal" Gold Saint. And even though Ikki got a power boost when his cloth revived and got stronger(Phoenix cloth essentially gets Zenkai boosts when its destroyed and regenerates on its own), it shouldn't make him any faster than Light, that is specifically a God thing according to Pontos, and the only time a Saint can go beyond light is through a plot device(miracle)or through divine/godly armament and/or sense(9th). It almost makes ot as if Aiakos was only near light at that point, Idk.

I think it's reasonable to assume that Hades himself is at that level of speed,

Yup, all the strongest primordial and Olympian gods are ftl. But it should be noted that not even the gods blitz the lightspeeding Gold Saints, despite showing a bit of an edge in speed. So while they are ftl, the difference is more akin to the gap between say, Batman and Shiva.

since he was able to handle the God clothed main characters. There are also a few Specters, like Papillon Myu, that were able to fight a Gold Saint (Aries Mu, who won because Taurus Aldebaran pulled off a "You are already dead" attack on Myu before he got killed himself). Those guys should indeed be able to blitz most of the Apokolips fodder all the way to Darkseid's couch... throne, I mean throne. Also, are Hypnos and Thanatos invited to that fight as well (they weren't mentioned, since they are minor gods, and not specters, but they are still part of Hades' army)?

Yeah they are basically his right and left hand men so that's a good question.

However, there is also fodder that got casually Galaxian Exploded by Kanon, and IIRC it's heavily implied (but not always shown) that the other surviving characters on Athena's side (Shaka, Dohko, the main Bronze boys, and Athena herself) were quite easily defeating non-Judge specters left and right. I don't think those guys are significantly above Silver Saint-level (Mach 2 to 5 speed), and I believe they are a significant part of the 108 Specters. Have to reread some scans to confirm (as I said, it's been a while).

EDIT: Damned, blitzed by Cody

Yeah only a handful of the Spectres that aren't judges can go toe to toe with your typical 7th sense using Gold Saint, and even then all they can do is put up a fight instead of being stomped outright, they still lose. The vast majority are barely stronger than a Silver Saint, so i am not sure how they will fair against the armies of Apokolypse.

Make to mistake though, since current DS seems to be on a level above current Supes(so ove heard), that would more or less put him in the Athena-Hades range of power, so not even Thanatos and Hypnos will be able to take him on, Hades will be needed, and while I put my money on Hades, its gonna be a good fight.

Edit:Since this is post crisis however, then a single Judge alone should be enough here.

[Slade1]

I don't know much about Saint Seiya so can't really comment on the fight, but since the group didn't use a Boom Tube to get to Apokolips wouldn't they be less than dust mote sized?

[Nik Hasta]

Its to explain the physical attacks impact specifically on an atomic level. It's the series way of explaining how they can strike with such damage despite being, at best, class 50-70 in lifting ability(with the exception of strength based characters like Taurus). The pillar in question for example was too durable for the Libra weapons to even scuff, despite the fact that they are stated to be capable of destroying stars and planets.

So, did they subsequently destroy said pillar?

Additionally, you say stated to be capable of destroying worlds but what's the highest level of destruction said weapons have actually shown on panel?

[Cody]

So, did they subsequently destroy said pillar?

Only by combining their power, which alone wouldn't have been enough had it not been due to their determination and loyalty as Saints that activated a miracle(which, again, is a hundred percent plot based and should not be used as something the characters, other than Seiya(and even then, only when it comes to miracles he alone performed)can actually do:

Additionally, you say stated to be capable of destroying worlds but what's the highest level of destruction said weapons have actually shown on panel?

This is the unfortunate part of this series; it is 60% statements, 30% hyperbole, and 10% actual feats. It wasn't until the Episode G series that we finally actually see their lightspeed movements in effect via running around the planet in under a second(only a few of them can fly, they usually do a combo of running and leaping/falling with style).

Recently, in G Rebirth we actually see a god destroy all 88 constellations, only to later find out that said god(who is in the Thanatos-Hades threshold of power himself)had been lent power from Uranus, who is at least as strong as Hades. How much power is hard to say. That is still, what; 15-20 million stars obliterated?

All in all? Its a mostly statement based series. They don't contradict said statements with any low showings mind you, they just don't have many actual showings, unfortunately. Other than seeing all the constellations wiped out, we have a buffed up Gold Saint in Saintia Sho, holding back as they casually break up a huge comet with their attack(toned down version of the Galaxian Explosion) and send it flying towards the planet in an effort to force the Gold Saints to destroy the individual pieces while fighting off an army in order to generate more battle energy(the arc is seemingly a rip off of the Buu saga from DB in that way). Other than that? Just statements.

Again, no contradictory showings to said statements, but not much supporting feats either :/.

[Nik Hasta]

I seem to recall you saying to me in a different thread that Saint Seiya was like this and that I should probably avoid it for any kind of analysis.

This breakdown here kind of confirms that. Not a good series for concrete stuff.

[Cody]

I seem to recall you saying to me in a different thread that Saint Seiya was like this and that I should probably avoid it for any kind of analysis.

This breakdown here kind of confirms that. Not a good series for concrete stuff.

Not even remotely XD. Its why you'll see it wanked to outright stupidity on lesser sites. At least we recently actually saw on panel the constellations being blown up by a god, even if he had another, stronger god lending him his power, at least it's actually SOMETHING lol.