Echo (Maya Lopez) Appreciation 2021 Phoenix Song Echo

[Tendrin]

I did not like Phoenix Song. But then, I did not like her as the Phoenix either... and the part about her legacy of Awesome Warrior Women kind of just made me groan heavily.

That said, Roanhorse seems pretty good overall, just this book and its bits are definitely not my favorite things.

[Hypestyle]

Does Echo have the "full" phoenix power? As in, blow up a planet of broccoli-head people power? Or just a portion of it, and the "main essence" of the Phoenix force is elsewhere?

What can she exactly do at this point, power-stunt wise? Who is she going up against, since she was street-level before?

[Lukmendes]

I dunno, is Mantis and Ghost Rider really street level? Spider-Man only had the Captain Universe powers briefly (I don't view Black Panther as all that street-level aside from the Man Without Fear era).

Man I remember checking out Daredevil comics to see Black Tarantula's appearances, and I was baffled when one run ends and T'Challa, of all people, decided to replace Daredevil.

Like what the hell man, that's so baffling lol.

Before the unfortunate retcon, we all saw what happened to Jean Grey when she became the Phoenix. I'm curious to see how Echo carries the mantle now.

Honestly, the Phoenix looking like it can only really be evil or so ridiculously out of control is annoying, even once Jean and Phoenix became separated beings, Rachel got the Phoenix and was in control for a long time, I think someone else used the Phoenix and was fine too, and Jean didn't become Dark Phoenix again before Magneto killed her.

I think X-Men 3 started this "Phoenix is most likely evil", which Avengers vs X-Men definitely used for that stupid plot to happen.

[JudicatorPrime]

Honestly, the Phoenix looking like it can only really be evil or so ridiculously out of control is annoying, even once Jean and Phoenix became separated beings, Rachel got the Phoenix and was in control for a long time, I think someone else used the Phoenix and was fine too, and Jean didn't become Dark Phoenix again before Magneto killed her.

I think X-Men 3 started this "Phoenix is most likely evil", which Avengers vs X-Men definitely used for that stupid plot to happen.

I definitely agree that Marvel is wrong for assuming that the Phoenix Force is "evil." I think, like all cosmic forces, it should be beyond the scope of such a simplistic and subjectively human definition.

I also think that it's fine time that Marvel stop selling the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" crap that they usually push whenever someone gets this level of power. That has been done to death. I'm really hoping that they'll take the opportunity to explore Echo's relationship with the PF and not resolve it in such a trite fashion.

[JudicatorPrime]

It's his facial features. He looks like he's drawn by people who don't know what Native Americans actually look like

Unfortunately, that happens all too often. With several characters.

[CosmiComic]

I'm hearing this more and more from readers. I wonder why Marvel felt that adding the PF to Echo's lore would make her much more compelling than she already was. I think they could have promoted and progressed the character without the PF. But then again, I feel that way about pretty much everyone who wielded the PF and other cosmic level amps.

Maybe because most Native American Marvel hero s don't have interesting superpowers. She is a fairly out of left field choice for the PF

[CosmiComic]

Unfortunately, that happens all too often. With several characters.

Yes. It's either stereotypical or barely recognizable. I couldn't even tell Wyatt Wingfoot in the 2018 FF comics

[Lukmendes]

I definitely agree that Marvel is wrong for assuming that the Phoenix Force is "evil." I think, like all cosmic forces, it should be beyond the scope of such a simplistic and subjectively human definition.

I also think that it's fine time that Marvel stop selling the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" crap that they usually push whenever someone gets this level of power. That has been done to death. I'm really hoping that they'll take the opportunity to explore Echo's relationship with the PF and not resolve it in such a trite fashion.

The worst thing is that isn't even that the power itself is corrupting, because if that were the case, you can at least say it's that character's own flaws getting on the way, but it's made clear in cases like AvX that the Phoenix is what causes the corruption, for shits and giggles I guess.

I can understand why they'd want to avoid letting characters have the Phoenix Force, 'cause unless Marvel has nerfed her, she's around Galactus' level, and that's huge if the character is staying on Earth, and might still be a big deal if she's dealing with cosmic shit, but I don't think screwing up Phoenix's characterization is the solution here.

[Starchilde]

The worst thing is that isn't even that the power itself is corrupting, because if that were the case, you can at least say it's that character's own flaws getting on the way, but it's made clear in cases like AvX that the Phoenix is what causes the corruption, for shits and giggles I guess.

I can understand why they'd want to avoid letting characters have the Phoenix Force, 'cause unless Marvel has nerfed her, she's around Galactus' level, and that's huge if the character is staying on Earth, and might still be a big deal if she's dealing with cosmic shit, but I don't think screwing up Phoenix's characterization is the solution here.

AvX was a disgrace in so many levels. I will never understand why marvel wanted to screw up Jean's lore and legacy so much just to tell THAT awful story. It has distortioned the perception of Phoenix so much.

I read Phoenix Song Echo and I didn't like that its rehashing some of the same tropes of AVX with Forge being the Tony Stark of the situtation.

[Lukmendes]

AvX was a disgrace in so many levels. I will never understand why marvel wanted to screw up Jean's lore and legacy so much just to tell THAT awful story. It has distortioned the perception of Phoenix so much.

Marvel had a really dumb "Heroes vs Heroes" phase at the time, as terrible as Civil War was, it sold, and most likely so did AvX.

I doubt they specifically were trying to ruin Jean or Phoenix with that story, she was just a means to an end, the cause of a dumb conflict, it's one of those "plot over character" types of stories, and the plot itself is poorly written, so everyone gets ruined for the plot to happen, with Cap having it worse than anyone else (Well, besides the Phoenix Force herself), since he's supposed to be a reasonable guy, yet, he caused a dumb conflict to begin with (Not that Cyclops is entirely blameless, but he was in a messier situation by default, so yeah, Cap should've tried to not be an ass), and then post AvX has him and other Avengers even hunted Cyclops for killing Xavier, while I'm not sure how long that lasted, it shouldn't have happened to begin with, but hey, Cyke was a terrorist back then I guess, or at least Marvel says he is, while never really showing it.

So yeah, bad story for the sake of short term sales I guess.

I read Phoenix Song Echo and I didn't like that its rehashing some of the same tropes of AVX with Forge being the Tony Stark of the situtation.

What, so he tried to kill the Phoenix with some dumb gun he came up with? Did we get Phoenix Five again too if so? Lol

[Starchilde]

What, so he tried to kill the Phoenix with some dumb gun he came up with? Did we get Phoenix Five again too if so? Lol

Basically, yes lmao

First he showed Echo some pictures of bad things about Phoenix (and for some reason he included an image of Madelyne Pryor from a What If?). Then he tried to "neutralize the Phoenix" with a gun. Later he locked up Echo in some kind of bunker because "phoenix bad" and the usual. Finally, Echo breaks free and flees the bunker.

Edit: At least there's no Phoenix Five... yet xD

[Lukmendes]

Basically, yes lmao

First he showed Echo some pictures of bad things about Phoenix (and for some reason he included an image of Madelyne Pryor from a What If?).

Well now, usually when editorial or writers screw up continuity, they just forget/ignore key details, but getting a scene from another continuity? A random what if even? That's a new way to screw up...

Then he tried to "neutralize the Phoenix" with a gun. Later he locked up Echo in some kind of bunker because "phoenix bad" and the usual. Finally, Echo breaks free and flees the bunker.

Forge after Echo escapes:

Edit: At least there's no Phoenix Five... yet xD

Well, if we get that again, spoilers:

I wonder if the initials of each character's name will spell PENIS again

end of spoilers

[JudicatorPrime]

Maybe because most Native American Marvel hero s don't have interesting superpowers. She is a fairly out of left field choice for the PF

Well, the problem is that they are given powers that aren't exactly unique.

The original Thunderbird was killed off because his powers were too much like Wolverine's, even though Thunderbird was far stronger and faster. Shaman and Talisman both have interesting powers from the standpoint that magic opens the door for any number of possibilities, but with Dr. Strange and countless other magic types running around, you probably won't get many events where they are the featured mystical character. And I don't even know where to begin with Forge, since he's supposed to be the confluence of magic and science, but he's written more like a gun-toting jack of all trades and master of none. (How his mutant ability works is also annoying to me.)

Even Echo with her photographic reflexes just reminds one of the Taskmaster, who has the same ability and far more of a fan following. And now that she is the Phoenix, well, Marvel likes doubling down, I guess.

From a powers standpoint, it's unfortunate that many of these characters just reminds one of other more prominent characters. It would have been nice if the writers brought something new to the table for Echo.

[Starchilde]

Forge after Echo escapes:

hahahahah that video is perfect xD Forge really thought he was doing something with the phoenixproof bunker

[CosmiComic]

Well, the problem is that they are given powers that aren't exactly unique.

The original Thunderbird was killed off because his powers were too much like Wolverine's, even though Thunderbird was far stronger and faster. Shaman and Talisman both have interesting powers from the standpoint that magic opens the door for any number of possibilities, but with Dr. Strange and countless other magic types running around, you probably won't get many events where they are the featured mystical character. And I don't even know where to begin with Forge, since he's supposed to be the confluence of magic and science, but he's written more like a gun-toting jack of all trades and master of none. (How his mutant ability works is also annoying to me.)

Even Echo with her photographic reflexes just reminds one of the Taskmaster, who has the same ability and far more of a fan following. And now that she is the Phoenix, well, Marvel likes doubling down, I guess.

From a powers standpoint, it's unfortunate that many of these characters just reminds one of other more prominent characters. It would have been nice if the writers brought something new to the table for Echo.

That's unfortunate. Shaman and Talisman are distinct enough from Dr. strange IMO to be used alongside him. I mean, if we can have Hulk, Thing and Colossus, then we can have Strange and Shaman

Echo's powers are not bad but they're still kinda basic. None of them have interesting power combos like Vision or Ant-Man for example