People Complaining About Diversity In Comics

[Spiderfan001]

The concept?

No.

If the characters are human then of course they'll experience love.

This.
And I have seen that people don't care about execution.I stated an example of TASM.If they female love interest dies or needs help some people will call it sexism.Like what?!
The hell Gwen gonna do when she is being dropped from a bridge

[marhawkman]

Another moment is how Janet van Dyne wasn't supposedly in the first Ant-man script, then added later as being dead despite being a major Avenger in order to give the focus on a lesser known character, Scott Lang. Hope replaces her but can't even be a hero in that movie because her dad didn't want her to. Both Wasps were treated like afterthoughts. If the genders were reversed and a lesser known female hero replaced a more well known male one, I'd bet there'd be a bunch of outcry.

given that Janet is traditionally the wife of Hank Pym? It'd be weird using her as the #2 character in an Antman movie with Scott Lang as the lead. There is no way to do that without people complaining about her being poorly used as a romantic interest(since her relationship with Hank Pym is a major aspect of her backstory). That'd be true whether or not there is an actual romance plot though. Overall writing a Scott Lang story.... just works better if the female lead(romantic interest or otherwise) isn't Janet. This isn't to say that having Janet and Scott Lang together in stories is a bad idea in general, more that having them as co-stars in a story wouldn't work well. Now if it was Janet, Hank, Scott and Hope in one story? that works a lot better. It's not about sexism thought it's just about writing a good story.

[Spiderfan001]

given that Janet is traditionally the wife of Hank Pym? It'd be weird using her as the #2 character in an Antman movie with Scott Lang as the lead. There is no way to do that without people complaining about her being poorly used as a romantic interest(since her relationship with Hank Pym is a major aspect of her backstory). That'd be true whether or not there is an actual romance plot though. Overall writing a Scott Lang story.... just works better if the female lead(romantic interest or otherwise) isn't Janet. This isn't to say that having Janet and Scott Lang together in stories is a bad idea in general, more that having them as co-stars in a story wouldn't work well. Now if it was Janet, Hank, Scott and Hope in one story? that works a lot better. It's not about sexism thought it's just about writing a good story.

Agreed.
Just shows that while gender is a factor there are bigger ones in play many ignore(Most of the times).

[Triniking1234]

Janet's death is a reference to his first wife in the comics dying.

Bucky also dies in Cap's first movie. Both cases were cop outs.

[Spiderfan001]

Janet's death is a reference to his first wife in the comics dying.

Bucky also dies in Cap's first movie. Both cases were cop outs.

But you only see people complain about one.

Jason Todd dies and it's cool.Gwen dies even though she is just a normal civilian with no fighting skills or experience then she's a victim of sexism.

Any an every female death these days is blamed on sexism like there are other factors than gender in comics.

[CosmiComic]

Fair enough.I has no idea about that.

Nope.It was one sided.The other was proved false IIRC.

Cool.

Again Male's and Female's have different conventional standards of beauty.
The process differs because of what most people find attractive in a gender.It's the same thing.This is the definition of a double standard.
Masculinity is a more attractive in males(muscles) and femininity in females(asests) for most people.
Heck, a shirtless scene is just as if not more s*xulaized than a revealing tight outfit.
I agree on the actors part.

But a lot of those standards are based on cultural ideals, not biology. Masculinity and femininity are arbitrary nonsense.

Again you miss the point.One is a super-powered experienced crime-fighter and the other's a civilian.You may not like that but it has nothing to do with gender and makes complete sense.

Again never heard that.But again, side character.Actions and consequences.And we had stories like Spider-man Blue that show she was much more than just a victim.
And Uncle Ben was a victim as well.Heck he was more of a victim than anyone in comic book history.Yet he is a great character loved by many despite almost no actual content.

MJ's character had a party girl facade.The "face it tiger" is completely in character.As for her looks, she was always the out of your league girl.And why for the love of god do people have a problem if a character is hot.Heck Peter himself is hot.
She is hot because rom the get go that's a part of who she is, not the entirety.
And Aunt May is old and working to provide for her and Peter.Nothing sexist here.

Again they are side characters.Same complaints can be made for male ones.Why does Flash have to be buff to be the bully...
Again people will take literally anything they don't like and call it sexism."Oh she's attractive and confident, sexism", "oh she's old and feels her age, sexism" and "she's a normal human being who got caught up in a battle amongst experienced super-beings and died, sexism".Bruh what.

Some people(not you specifically) have this idea of how a female should be and if anything goes against that it's sexist.

The funny thing is MJ is one of if not the best characters as far as love interests go.

People don't like the "out of you league thing" because it's based on arbitrary social standards, and the whole "nerd gets hot girl" is a problematic trope in history.

And when did I have some specific idea of how women have to behave? I'm saying women shouldn't be forced into gender norms and comics have a problem with enforcing a lot of those norms.

I don't want MJ running into battle with a supervillain. I just don't need her to be some "thing" Peter needs to protect.

[CosmiComic]

given that Janet is traditionally the wife of Hank Pym? It'd be weird using her as the #2 character in an Antman movie with Scott Lang as the lead. There is no way to do that without people complaining about her being poorly used as a romantic interest(since her relationship with Hank Pym is a major aspect of her backstory). That'd be true whether or not there is an actual romance plot though. Overall writing a Scott Lang story.... just works better if the female lead(romantic interest or otherwise) isn't Janet. This isn't to say that having Janet and Scott Lang together in stories is a bad idea in general, more that having them as co-stars in a story wouldn't work well. Now if it was Janet, Hank, Scott and Hope in one story? that works a lot better. It's not about sexism thought it's just about writing a good story.

I didn't say Jan should be Scott's love interest. I just said she shouldn't have disappeared for 1.5 movies. And maybe you don't think it's sexist, but it looks that way to me. "Writing a good story" doesn't mean it has to involve this kind of problematic trope. And AM1 wasn't that good anyway

[CosmiComic]

But you only see people complain about one.

Jason Todd dies and it's cool.Gwen dies even though she is just a normal civilian with no fighting skills or experience then she's a victim of sexism.

Any an every female death these days is blamed on sexism like there are other factors than gender in comics.

because the nature of these deaths is different

[Spiderfan001]

But a lot of those standards are based on cultural ideals, not biology. Masculinity and femininity are arbitrary nonsense.



People don't like the "out of you league thing" because it's based on arbitrary social standards, and the whole "nerd gets hot girl" is a problematic trope in history.

And when did I have some specific idea of how women have to behave? I'm saying women shouldn't be forced into gender norms and comics have a problem with enforcing a lot of those norms.

I don't want MJ running into battle with a supervillain. I just don't need her to be some "thing" Peter needs to protect.

Again most people would be more attracted to those things to their respective genders.Most people hence why I said conventional standards of beauty.Not a rule.
And even if not muscles and assets serve the same function in this case, s*xualization.
Calling it anything else is a blatant and harmful double standard.
And keeping it real, you think Chris Hemsworth or any of the others would have male MCU actors would have been cast if not for their masculine physique and attractiveness.Same with females for their attractiveness and feminine figure.

Again it is now.Back then it wasn't as common.
And the way they get together is very well done.Not in a trope way at all.

I never said you.i said some people.
But you keep saying that MJ shouldn't be hot, how is her being hot a problem.She is a model for the love of...
Same with May, how is an old hard working women being a bit physically weak a problem.She is still a morally and mentally strong person who helps Peter through so much.
.
Again most villains make things personal with Pete.That makes her a target.
You may not like it but it makes sense from both a story-telling perspective and in-universe.
And you may not need it either but that is the way things are.She will always be in danger with Pete.

[CosmiComic]

Again most people would be more attracted to those things to their respective genders.Most people hence why I said conventional standards of beauty.Not a rule.
And even if not muscles and assets serve the same function in this case, s*xualization.
Calling it anything else is a blatant and harmful double standard.
And keeping it real, you think Chris Hemsworth or any of the others would have male MCU actors would have been cast if not for their masculine physique and attractiveness.Same with females for their attractiveness and feminine figure.

Ok, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Probably the actors wouldn't have been cast. But why is it ok if hollywood stereotypes male and female appearances? Shouldn't we want to change that? Especially since some of these standards can be racist

Again it is now.Back then it wasn't as common.
And the way they get together is very well done.Not in a trope way at all.

Didn't she literally introduce herself as a prize to Peter? And even if it wasn't back then, if people are tired of it now, why keep things the same?

I never said you.i said some people.
But you keep saying that MJ shouldn't be hot, how is her being hot a problem.She is a model for the love of...
Same with May, how is an old hard working women being a bit physically weak a problem.She is still a morally and mentally strong person who helps Peter through so much.
.

Ok. Models being forced to be attractive is a problematic trope in of itself. If someone's showing off clothes, why does their natural appearance matter?

And why exactly does MJ have to be "hot"? Can't Peter date an unconventionally attractive woman? Same with May. She's an older woman so does that mean she has to be frail and old? Why can't she be conventionally attractive or at least not a senior citizen. I've heard people say she'd literally die if she heard Peter was Spider-Man. How is it good to treat a female character like that?

Again most villains make things personal with Pete.That makes her a target.
You may not like it but it makes sense from both a story-telling perspective and in-universe.
And you may not need it either but that is the way things are.She will always be in danger with Pete.z

Villains attacking Peter is another trope which isn't realistic and is overused. Realistically the villains would avoid being around Peter because they don't want him interfering with their plans. These things stay this way because writers want them to because they don't want to change anything, not because it's realistic

[Spiderfan001]

Ok, I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Probably the actors wouldn't have been cast. But why is it ok if hollywood stereotypes male and female appearances? Shouldn't we want to change that? Especially since some of these standards can be racist



Didn't she literally introduce herself as a prize to Peter? And even if it wasn't back then, if people are tired of it now, why keep things the same?



Ok. Models being forced to be attractive is a problematic trope in of itself. If someone's showing off clothes, why does their natural appearance matter?

And why exactly does MJ have to be "hot"? Can't Peter date an unconventionally attractive woman? Same with May. She's an older woman so does that mean she has to be frail and old? Why can't she be conventionally attractive or at least not a senior citizen. I've heard people say she'd literally die if she heard Peter was Spider-Man. How is it good to treat a female character like that?



Villains attacking Peter is another trope which isn't realistic and is overused. Realistically the villains would avoid being around Peter because they don't want him interfering with their plans. These things stay this way because writers want them to because they don't want to change anything, not because it's realistic

Then change them on both sides.You can't say that females are s*xualized and males aren't.Which you felt was the case.
And I don't see a problem with both tbh, Superhero's are meant to be larger than life fantasy stuff so both being attractive is cool.Again choose a level you will s*xualize them.It could be almost nothing to max and keep it consistent for them all.Of course there will be exception like if a someone is using her looks to their advantage(Like Nat and maybe someone like Thor may get a pass somewhere because of his physique).

They didn't.It was pickup line.
Do you read ASM.MJ is one of the best characters specially for a "love interest" as you would say.
It's iconic, can female's not flirt.

You find the number of people in modeling/acting and tell me how many of them are attractive.
You may have a problem with it but that is how things are, seems like something to change in the real world.Not in a comic.Even if they did it would be so unrealistic.

And with MJ they play into how people are into her for looks or who she sleeps with.
People mistake her as a hooker and she got job offers because there was a false rumor she slept with Trask.
We see her overcome this stuff and get a job on her own accord/

He can.But MJ was always meant to be attractive.And that's not why they date or get married.
Seems to me you are projecting.
Let me ask you something.Why does MJ have to be ugly to you?Why does May have to be physically fit to you?
Stuff like this makes me think you have a problem with confident women who flirt and are attractive.
Can't a physically fit women be a strong character to you?Because May is one of the strongest characters.
Again you can do this with any character.Why does Peter have to be a super-genius?Why does Jonah have to be a bad boss?Why does Flash have to be muscular?
It's the story they wrote with their characters and the people like it.Nothing to do with gender smh.

Bruh their reasons are personal.They want revenge or something else that involves Pete personally.
And do you want a comic book story.Why does Batman not get Joker locked up in a space prison.He has the money.It's not out of character and no moral code broken

And seems to me you have a problem with everything.And anything you don't like is a trope and overused and outdated and should be dropped.If it's with a female then sexism as well.Maybe comics aren't for you if you hate everything in them(exaggeration).

The story worked and people love these characters for who they are.Why would they change this now?Hell why would they change this ever?

On a serious note, why do you want MJ to be unattractive.I wouldn't mind if he dated an avg. looking person like Carlie or even worse in looks in BND but I don't see the need to change a fundamental aspect of character to fulfill this.

[CosmiComic]

Then change them on both sides.You can't say that females are s*xualized and males aren't.Which you felt was the case.
And I don't see a problem with both tbh, Superhero's are meant to be larger than life fantasy stuff so both being attractive is cool.Again choose a level you will s*xualize them.It could be almost nothing to max and keep it consistent for them all.Of course there will be exception like if a someone is using her looks to their advantage(Like Nat and maybe someone like Thor may get a pass somewhere because of his physique).

I don't sexualize anything. That creeps me out. And I never said men weren't, but that they weren't to the same degree.

They didn't.It was pickup line.
Do you read ASM.MJ is one of the best characters specially for a "love interest" as you would say.
It's iconic, can female's not flirt.

I don't think it's a realistic line. I can't see anyone introducing them

You find the number of people in modeling/acting and tell me how many of them are attractive.
You may have a problem with it but that is how things are, seems like something to change in the real world.Not in a comic.Even if they did it would be so unrealistic.

I don't personally care about models' looks but they're mostly conventionally attractive. That's the problem.

And with MJ they play into how people are into her for looks or who she sleeps with.
People mistake her as a hooker and she got job offers because there was a false rumor she slept with Trask.
We see her overcome this stuff and get a job on her own accord/

Overcoming that is good but all that is kind of creepy in the first place.

He can.But MJ was always meant to be attractive.And that's not why they date or get married.
Seems to me you are projecting.
Let me ask you something.Why does MJ have to be ugly to you?Why does May have to be physically fit to you?
Stuff like this makes me think you have a problem with confident women who flirt and are attractive.
Can't a physically fit women be a strong character to you?Because May is one of the strongest characters.
Again you can do this with any character.Why does Peter have to be a super-genius?Why does Jonah have to be a bad boss?Why does Flash have to be muscular?
It's the story they wrote with their characters and the people like it.Nothing to do with gender smh.

None of that is what I'm criticizing. I'm not projecting anything. I'm not sure you're even understanding what I'm saying.

Bruh their reasons are personal.They want revenge or something else that involves Pete personally.
And do you want a comic book story.Why does Batman not get Joker locked up in a space prison.He has the money.It's not out of character and no moral code broken

And seems to me you have a problem with everything.And anything you don't like is a trope and overused and outdated and should be dropped.If it's with a female then sexism as well.Maybe comics aren't for you if you hate everything in them(exaggeration).

It's an overused cliche writers in various media employ to artificially raise the stakes. I don't need a hero's loved ones to regularly be in danger.

And I like comics just fine. I read them and I enjoy the characters. But I'm not blind to their faults because I want them to be better, and I don't hold the older stuff as some unreachable standard.

The story worked and people love these characters for who they are.Why would they change this now?Hell why would they change this ever?

On a serious note, why do you want MJ to be unattractive.I wouldn't mind if he dated an avg. looking person like Carlie or even worse in looks in BND but I don't see the need to change a fundamental aspect of character to fulfill this.

It's only a fundamental aspect because older writers had the idea of her being this super attractive woman. So if that changes in an adaptation, like a movie or video game, I'm not bothered by it, because I don't expect fictional characters to live up to arbitrary standards of beauty. And I never meant I wanted her to be ugly. My point is it's not a problem if she isn't

[skyvolt2000]

People don't like the "out of you league thing" because it's based on arbitrary social standards, and the whole "nerd gets hot girl" is a problematic trope in history.

How is it a problematic troupe? We just had a bunch of tv shows have long runs using that.

The Big Bang Theory says HI. All the white nerds got hot wives.

Lets not forget the fat white guy and the hot wife-Mike & Molly & King of Queens.

Nor the cranky old white guy and hot wife-Married With Children and Modern Family say HI. Heck Dynasty (both versions) say hi.

Jason Todd dies and it's cool.Gwen dies even though she is just a normal civilian with no fighting skills or experience then she's a victim of sexism.

Any an every female death these days is blamed on sexism like there are other factors than gender in comics.

Most of the time those females are underdeveloped or were mere eye candy.

A more recent example would the sudden fans Arista of Green Lantern seems to have now. Some underused for 21 years and no one called out Johns or any WHITE writer about it. Yet the black writer is being called out over it.

And it's not limited to women-Heroes in Crisis got called out for it as well. Hotspot had not been seen in a DC comic in 22 years. He pops up to be badmouth in Sideways and then made to look like Trayvon Martin and die in HIC. Throw in Gunfire (who LOL was replaced by a black guy in another book-was not seen in 25 years) and a few LGBTQA+ folks got killed as well.

Then we have the CW's 100s. That killed the black guy (thus veering away from the novels) for the bad boy white boy-who didn't even exist in the novels.

[CosmiComic]

How is it a problematic troupe? We just had a bunch of tv shows have long runs using that.

The Big Bang Theory says HI. All the white nerds got hot wives.

Lets not forget the fat white guy and the hot wife-Mike & Molly & King of Queens.

Nor the cranky old white guy and hot wife-Married With Children and Modern Family say HI. Heck Dynasty (both versions) say hi.

That's my point. It's been around so much it's a cliche. Hot girl exists as a prize for nerdy guy. Why not have nerdyguy & nerdy girl together

Most of the time those females are underdeveloped or were mere eye candy.

A more recent example would the sudden fans Arista of Green Lantern seems to have now. Some underused for 21 years and no one called out Johns or any WHITE writer about it. Yet the black writer is being called out over it.

And it's not limited to women-Heroes in Crisis got called out for it as well. Hotspot had not been seen in a DC comic in 22 years. He pops up to be badmouth in Sideways and then made to look like Trayvon Martin and die in HIC. Throw in Gunfire (who LOL was replaced by a black guy in another book-was not seen in 25 years) and a few LGBTQA+ folks got killed as well.

Then we have the CW's 100s. That killed the black guy (thus veering away from the novels) for the bad boy white boy-who didn't even exist in the novels.

[PCN24454]

That's my point. It's been around so much it's a cliche. Hot girl exists as a prize for nerdy guy. Why not have nerdyguy & nerdy girl together

That can also be problematic since it's often contrasted with the hot but vain girl love interest.