Is wonder less violence, less aggressive, than the "average" amazon?

[Razor Tiara]

They weren't under attack for three thousand years. All they had to deal with was the occasional incursion out of Doom's Doorway.

The rest of the time? "Peace, love, and bunnies."

Once the comics got started? They were under attack every once in a while. Then it was back to patting themselves on the back about how much better they were than everyone else.

The only troubles the Amazons encountered came from outside sources. They, themselves, and their society, were perfect.

No they weren't. You made that up. They had to wrestle with allowing visitors on the island, that came back and bit them in the behind. They had to try to forgive men, fail, and try again, they had to try to live up to the ideals they exposed and rarely succeeded. They had to learn to accept their sisters. All while avoiding vengeful gods, political coups, mythological beasts, invading armies and Darkseid.

[Vanguard-01]

No they weren't. You made that up. They had to wrestle with allowing visitors on the island, that came back and bit them in the behind. They had to try to forgive men, fail, and try again, they had to try to live up to the ideals they exposed and rarely succeeded. They had to learn to accept their sisters. All while avoiding vengeful gods, mythological beasts, invading armies and Darkseid.

Yes, they had to wrestle with allowing outside influences into their little perfect world. And, as you say, that ultimately proved to be a bad thing for them. They had to defend their way of life against outside threats.

You're basically making my point for me.

[Agent Z]

In the New 52? Definitely.

In the pre-Flashpoint universe? A little more debatable, since all the Amazons, other than the Banas, were all peace-loving and perfect (we just won't count Amazons Attack.)

The Banas were not always a separate tribe and were once part of the original tribe. In fact, there leader was Hippolyta's sister. Yes most of the Amazons negative qualitiues were brought out as responses to outside sources, but those responses showed clear imperfections. i.e hating all men based on Heracles' actions.

[Vanguard-01]

The Banas were not always a separate tribe and were once part of the original tribe. In fact, there leader was Hippolyta's sister. Yes most of the Amazons negative qualitiues were brought out as responses to outside sources, but those responses showed clear imperfections. i.e hating all men based on Heracles' actions.

Thank you!

A much better counter-argument than "You're just making stuff up!"

Yes, the Amazons had some flaws pre-Flashpoint. They were still much more uniformly superior to everyone else in the world. At least as depicted by most writers, anyway. They did much more to come across as perfect.

[Agent Z]

Thank you!

A much better counter-argument than "You're just making stuff up!"

Yes, the Amazons had some flaws pre-Flashpoint. They were still much more uniformly superior to everyone else in the world. At least as depicted by most writers, anyway. They did much more to come across as perfect.

To be fair there tends to be a lot of hyperbole when it comes to describing the Amazons' 'perfect' status. Not helped when writers buy into this notion and go too far in the opposite direction.

[Vanguard-01]

To be fair there tends to be a lot of hyperbole when it comes to describing the Amazons' 'perfect' status. Not helped when writers buy into this notion and go too far in the opposite direction.

Exactly right.

Amazons Attack and even Azz's run are a case study in when writers go too far to correct a problem that wasn't really there in the first place. I like a lot of Azz's work, but if DC gave me the power and authority to retcon just one thing about the New 52, I wouldn't even stop to think about it. I'd get rid of the "murderous Amazons" part of Azz's run.

Azz? If you wanted to show the Amazons aren't perfect, all you had to do was show that they have a real problem with the entire male gender and don't see men as anything more than a resource to be exploited. That's it. There's plenty of imperfection right there. The sex raids are fine, it's the killing afterward that is just going too far.

[brettc1]

In the New 52? Definitely.

In the pre-Flashpoint universe? A little more debatable, since all the Amazons, other than the Banas, were all peace-loving and perfect (we just won't count Amazons Attack.)

Not entirely true, the Amazons were still flawed human beings, just more like Star a Treks Federation than Klingons.

Post Crisis Diana represented the best of the Amazon philosophy. So maybe, but the gap was less noticeable.

[brettc1]

Exactly right.

Amazons Attack and even Azz's run are a case study in when writers go too far to correct a problem that wasn't really there in the first place. I like a lot of Azz's work, but if DC gave me the power and authority to retcon just one thing about the New 52, I wouldn't even stop to think about it. I'd get rid of the "murderous Amazons" part of Azz's run.

Azz? If you wanted to show the Amazons aren't perfect, all you had to do was show that they have a real problem with the entire male gender and don't see men as anything more than a resource to be exploited. That's it. There's plenty of imperfection right there. The sex raids are fine, it's the killing afterward that is just going too far.

I could have lived with that.

[Carabas]

No the civil war was not instigated by Circe. And who said anything about "savage warmongers" it was your use of "perfect" I took issue with. That's just NOT TRUE, no matter who says it, nor how many times it's said.

One civil war in 3000 years. That's actually pretty impressive track record, especially for a monarchy.

[ed2962]

Don't forget, there's a purple HEALING ray too.

[Jabare]

Depends on the writer. Wonder Woman can be the embodiment of peace, a true pacifist. And she can also be an over aggressive instigator, who strikes first and talks later.


Kind of similar to Batman, who goes from perfect and always right. To an overbearing jerk only serving to worsen situations

[Razor Tiara]

Thank you!

A much better counter-argument than "You're just making stuff up!"

Yes, the Amazons had some flaws pre-Flashpoint. They were still much more uniformly superior to everyone else in the world. At least as depicted by most writers, anyway. They did much more to come across as perfect.

That's what you're doing though when you use a word like "perfect" to describe them. Especially knowing full well that word's history on this board and that someone was going to take issue with it, because we've had this discussion before, more than once. Don't poke the bear.

[gwhh]

Are BOTH of these from paradise lost comic series?

[Vanguard-01]

I could have lived with that.

I think most of us could.

Honestly, I like the idea that the Amazons reproduce sexually. I love the idea that they go out and find men to mate with. The only part that pisses me off is the killing part. Even the baby trading doesn't bother me much. Seriously, given the choice between the Amazons KILLING their sons or giving them away to a good home, which would you prefer?

If Azz drew the line at having the Amazons just going out and seducing men, there'd be no big issue. Now, Diana just has to show the Amazons that men have changed and that there's no further need to keep acting like every man in the world wants them dead. Then she just needs to put a stop to the baby trading, and everything's groovy. The Amazons are still flawed. There's still going to be resistance to the idea of allowing men on the island and stuff. Heck, you can even say that SOME Amazons believed in killing their men, but it was hardly a universal policy. There you go. Flawed Amazons aplenty, without turning them into monsters.

[Razor Tiara]

Are BOTH of these from paradise lost comic series?

Yes sir. But I could have posted any of the Alkyone stuff from Gail's run or War of the Gods, or Perez's Challenge of the Gods and still got my point across.