How long into Batman's career should Robin join him?

[SiegePerilous02]

Maybe, but I keep having flashbacks to the Schumacher version that did an adult Robin, and it just doesn't look right to me having a Robin that old in live action.
Precedent in the comics and animation doesn't matter - live action is an entirely different medium with different rules, and we've never seen a serious take on Robin in live action.

That Robin didn't work for other reasons. For one he's introduced as a 20 something year old man that Bruce adopts, which is totally weird and the overall tone of both films was campy. What some of us are talking about is introducing him as a teen or played by an actor who can pass for a teen in the 15-16 range and then jump ahead a few years. So we wouldn't be introduced to the character in such a weird setup. He can be a lighter character in an overall darker setting, while still being serious enough in his own way. it wouldn't drag the tone down at all.

Precedent in other takes is always considered in making things work. We haven't had a good live action Superman film since the 70s, and those are pretty outdated, yet nobody would say Superman doesn't work in live action and people shouldn't try anymore. The lack of precedent for live action Wonder Woman was also an excuse for why they took so long to actually give her a shot. We've also had the last Batman take fall flat on his face and became a meme to be mocked all on his own without Robin. So Shumacher being the only example we have so far doesn't really hold up as a valid reason for why it can't work, IMO.

[Vakanai]

That Robin didn't work for other reasons. For one he's introduced as a 20 something year old man that Bruce adopts, which is totally weird and the overall tone of both films was campy. What some of us are talking about is introducing him as a teen or played by an actor who can pass for a teen in the 15-16 range and then jump ahead a few years. So we wouldn't be introduced to the character in such a weird setup. He can be a lighter character in an overall darker setting, while still being serious enough in his own way. it wouldn't drag the tone down at all.

Precedent in other takes is always considered in making things work. We haven't had a good live action Superman film since the 70s, and those are pretty outdated, yet nobody would say Superman doesn't work in live action and people shouldn't try anymore. The lack of precedent for live action Wonder Woman was also an excuse for why they took so long to actually give her a shot. We've also had the last Batman take fall flat on his face and became a meme to be mocked all on his own without Robin. So Shumacher being the only example we have so far doesn't really hold up as a valid reason for why it can't work, IMO.

Oh I fully admit that the Schumacher films didn't work for a variety of reasons, that's not what I was getting at - I said I was having flashbacks because "it just doesn't look right to me" which had nothing to do with the faults you listed - to be personally I just found an adult in the Robin suit a little bit weird in hindsight. Doesn't mean it can't work or can't look good or so forth, only that I'm having trouble visually picturing it in my mind looking right. Like I can give Burt Ward's Robin a pass because he had such a baby face back then and the show looked campy, but while Schumacher's films were campy in their own way they didn't look it to the same extent. Who knows.

And while you have a point on precedent, it doesn't exactly count for nothing either. Some concepts are legitimately harder and trickier to get right than others, and Robin might be one of those cases. It could be done right, if all the stars align, but that doesn't mean that it will once given a shot. However...

yet nobody would say Superman doesn't work in live action and people shouldn't try anymore

...you've clearly forgotten WB exists.

[TheRay]

To alter the question a bit, how would this all play out on Earth 2?

[Jim Kelly]

This has me wondering it anyone ever did a what if story where the shoe was on the other foot. Dick Grayson sees his parents killed before his eyes and becomes a Boy Wonder Detective to solve the case. He finds out there's a larger criminal conspiracy and he traces it back to the murder of Thomas and Martha Wayne. He tracks down Bruce Wayne--a young man who sank into a dark depression after losing his parents--and Dick enlists Bruce in his crusade to end the crime cabal. With Wayne's money, they set up headquarters under Wayne Manor and Grayson (a physical marvel) trains Wayne in athletics. They become the Dynamic Duo of Robin, the Boy Wonder, and Batty.

[TheRay]

Well he joins Batman in 1940, so when Batman is 25.

[bat39]

To alter the question a bit, how would this all play out on Earth 2?

Well, in the Golden Age, Dick joined Bruce in the latter's 12th monthly appearance, so the answer to my original question would be - around a year. And the same applied to Earth 2.

Actually, the idea that Dick joined Bruce after about a year can be taken as the status quo throughout the entire Pre-COIE era. The idea of a Year One/Year Two as we understand it today, with a solo Batman taking on the Mob, a corrupt GCPD, and the emergence of costumed villains, was a creation of Frank Miller and the legion of writers who followed him in chronicling Batman's early years. Prior to that, while Batman's origin was frequently recapped, there were seldom, to my knowledge, flashbacks to or stories set during his early pre-Robin adventures. The pre-Robin era was basically whatever was in those first 11 issues by Kane/Finger (which themselves were never referenced). Its only Post-COIE, after Year One, and later Burton's Batman, that the idea of a pre-Robin era became really popular and fleshed out.

[Jim Kelly]

Well he joins Batman in 1940, so when Batman is 25.

How do you arrive
At twenty-five?

[TheRay]

It's Batman's literal age at the time....

[Jim Kelly]

It's Batman's literal age at the time....

According to what source?

[TheRay]

The world around us.
https://www.quora.com/When-was-Bruce-Wayne-born

[Jim Kelly]

I guess a straight forward answer is too much to ask for. I just want to know which comic from 1939 or 1940 is being used to arrive at that age so I can look at the story myself and add that information to my fact file.

I looked at that link and it's hard to tell which source they are using and whether it's from the period or if it's a later source. If it's later than it's not really relevant. There are a lot of Earth-Two stories, so maybe that's where this comes from. But I make a distinction between original Batman and Earth-Two Batman.

Earth-Two is a construct put together by later writers imposing a timeline on the stories that the 1940s comic books didn't follow.

In the actual comic books of the day, we can't say if there is supposed to be a normal passage of time. Bruce may always be the same exact age whether it's a comic book from 1939 or a comic book from 1944. And Dick may not age much either--maybe only a year or two over a ten year period. He's old enough to drive the Batmobile by 1950 (he might not need to be 16 to do this, however) but visually he hardly seems to grow at all between 1940 and 1964.

Because the Earth-Two comics want to maintain a semblance of real time, they have to invent chronologies that didn't apply to the actual 1940s comic books. So are we saying Bruce is established as twenty-five in DETECTIVE COMICS 38 (April 1940) or are we saying that Earth-Two Bruce is established as twenty-five in 1940 according to the Earth-Two time scale or are we saying something else?

[Tzigone]

I guess a straight forward answer is too much to ask for. I just want to know which comic from 1939 or 1940 is being used to arrive at that age so I can look at the story myself and add that information to my fact file.

I'd love to hear an established age. I know it's 15 years after his parents' murder that he becomes Batman, but have never tracked down his golden age age.

However, I know from a lovely, very sourced PDF (with one little oversight on Barbara that is law-related, not comic-related) that was previously posted (here, I think), that Brave and the Bold #197 did establish Earth-Two Bruce as ten when they were murdered.

I looked at that link and it's hard to tell which source they are using and whether it's from the period or if it's a later source. If it's later than it's not really relevant. There are a lot of Earth-Two stories, so maybe that's where this comes from. But I make a distinction between original Batman and Earth-Two Batman.

Me too. And for the other golden age heroes, as well. I'm very much more attached to the golden age timings and things, too, so that's one reason it's important to me that Dick arrive on the scene very, very early and before the vast bulk of other heroes. And that he's a kid that Bruce chooses to raise. And even one of the reasons I like Alfred arriving later.

[bat39]

I guess a straight forward answer is too much to ask for. I just want to know which comic from 1939 or 1940 is being used to arrive at that age so I can look at the story myself and add that information to my fact file.

I looked at that link and it's hard to tell which source they are using and whether it's from the period or if it's a later source. If it's later than it's not really relevant. There are a lot of Earth-Two stories, so maybe that's where this comes from. But I make a distinction between original Batman and Earth-Two Batman.

Earth-Two is a construct put together by later writers imposing a timeline on the stories that the 1940s comic books didn't follow.

In the actual comic books of the day, we can't say if there is supposed to be a normal passage of time. Bruce may always be the same exact age whether it's a comic book from 1939 or a comic book from 1944. And Dick may not age much either--maybe only a year or two over a ten year period. He's old enough to drive the Batmobile by 1950 (he might not need to be 16 to do this, however) but visually he hardly seems to grow at all between 1940 and 1964.

Because the Earth-Two comics want to maintain a semblance of real time, they have to invent chronologies that didn't apply to the actual 1940s comic books. So are we saying Bruce is established as twenty-five in DETECTIVE COMICS 38 (April 1940) or are we saying that Earth-Two Bruce is established as twenty-five in 1940 according to the Earth-Two time scale or are we saying something else?

I'm guessing he's going by the Earth 2 Bruce Wayne's birth year, which was established as being 1915, which would make him 25 in 1940 when he meets Dick.

In terms of the actual Golden Age comics, the first flashback of Batman's origin, in 'Tec # 33, stated that the Wayne murders happened ''some 15 years ago'', and that comic was published in late 1939. That would mean that Bruce was born in 1914, or maybe even early 1915...so it all more or less fits.

Dick's age on the other hand was never really hinted at in the actual Golden Age. I think its Earth 2 which at some point gives him a birth year of 1928, making him 12 when he becomes Robin.

[TheRay]

I'm guessing he's going by the Earth 2 Bruce Wayne's birth year, which was established as being 1915, which would make him 25 in 1940 when he meets Dick.

I don't know how it was this difficult to come up with this.

[Jim Kelly]

I don't know how it was this difficult to come up with this.

So why didn't you just say? All I wanted was a straight answer and you sent me on a fishing expedition.

I'm guessing he's going by the Earth 2 Bruce Wayne's birth year, which was established as being 1915, which would make him 25 in 1940 when he meets Dick.

In terms of the actual Golden Age comics, the first flashback of Batman's origin, in 'Tec # 33, stated that the Wayne murders happened ''some 15 years ago'', and that comic was published in late 1939. That would mean that Bruce was born in 1914, or maybe even early 1915...so it all more or less fits.

Dick's age on the other hand was never really hinted at in the actual Golden Age. I think its Earth 2 which at some point gives him a birth year of 1928, making him 12 when he becomes Robin.

It makes sense for how the later writers that concocted the Earth-Two Bruce Wayne did their math. But leaving that aside and just going with what the reader would know in 1939 or 1940, it's still ambiguous, as we don't know how old Bill Finger assumed Bruce Wayne to be at the time of the murder.



Going by Bob Kane and Sheldon Moldoff's art, Bruce looks like he could be anywhere between 12 and 16 (my rough guess)--let's say he's 14 that would make him 29 when the comic came out in October of 1939. Which seems about right to me, because most of the classic writers had their heroes pegged permanently at around 30 years old.

In any event. 25 or 30, Bruce never ages nor does Dick in the classic comics. So they always stay around the same age. I would say that Dick, even though he's short, is supposed to be 14 as well. One thing is certain DETECTIVE COMIC 27 (May 1939) came out in April 1939 and DETECTIVE COMIC 38 (April 1940) came out in March 1940--eleven months later--so that's when the original Robin joined the original Batman.