Richard Donner Dies Director Was 91

[bat39]

There are multiple fan cuts out there and at least one that I know of that's attempting a more complete reworking of Superman II to get it in line with Donner's original script. Thankfully, cutting edge SFX circa 1978 can now be done on a PC these days...

True.

I've never actually read Donner's original script...might check it out sometime. I feel that even with the Donner cut, he had to go with the ending he went with because that was the only footage he had available. So that leads to a weird situation where, for the second time in a row, Superman erases the events of the film by turning back time! This gets particularly awkward, because pretty major moments, like the 'death' of the Jor-El hologram, destruction of the Fortress and even that bully pummelling powerless Clark get wiped out...the latter is especially egregrious because it means Clark goes back and beats up a guy who technically did nothing to him in this timeline!

I believe as per the original plan, the first movie was just supposed to end with Superman throwing the missiles into space, causing the Phantom Zoners to be released, and the second film was to have the time-travel ending. But then, due to behind-the-scenes changes, Donner had to give the time-travel ending to the first film to give it a more definitive conclusion...and he probably had another ending in mind for the second that he never got around to shooting the footage for.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

True.

I've never actually read Donner's original script...might check it out sometime. I feel that even with the Donner cut, he had to go with the ending he went with because that was the only footage he had available. So that leads to a weird situation where, for the second time in a row, Superman erases the events of the film by turning back time! This gets particularly awkward, because pretty major moments, like the 'death' of the Jor-El hologram, destruction of the Fortress and even that bully pummelling powerless Clark get wiped out...the latter is especially egregrious because it means Clark goes back and beats up a guy who technically did nothing to him in this timeline!

I believe as per the original plan, the first movie was just supposed to end with Superman throwing the missiles into space, causing the Phantom Zoners to be released, and the second film was to have the time-travel ending. But then, due to behind-the-scenes changes, Donner had to give the time-travel ending to the first film to give it a more definitive conclusion...and he probably had another ending in mind for the second that he never got around to shooting the footage for.

Yup. Donner & Mank never came up with a new ending for Superman II. As a result, a few fan editors have retained the originally scripted ending of the Phantom Zone baddies being freed and moved Lois's death to the end of Superman II. Not sure exactly how'd that'd work, but that's the only way I could see how they could create a narrative that works.

As for Clark coming back and beating up the trucker after he turns back time, I don't think there's any solution there.

[bat39]

Yup. Donner & Mank never came up with a new ending for Superman II. As a result, a few fan editors have retained the originally scripted ending of the Phantom Zone baddies being freed and moved Lois's death to the end of Superman II. Not sure exactly how'd that'd work, but that's the only way I could see how they could create a narrative that works.

As for Clark coming back and beating up the trucker after he turns back time, I don't think there's any solution there.

Makes you wonder what Donner's plan for Lois' death originally was. Maybe she wasn't going to die in either film originally and they threw in her death when they moved the time-travel to the climax of the first film.

I think Clark beating up the trucker works if you show that scene before he turns back time. In fact, that would probably be the best version of the scene...Superman isn't worried about injuring the guy too much because he knows he's gonna wipe the timeline anyway so might as well take the chance to indulge in some petty vengeance

But yeah, Superman's time-travel/reversal is pretty much a story-breaking power in these movies. The way it was shown in the first film, it works on an emotional level at least - Lois' death making Superman grief-stricken enough to defy his father's warnings and turn back time. Though it does raise the question of why he doesn't do it everytime someone dies...

In the Donner Cut of the second film though, its even worse. He basically reverses time just to wipe Lois' memories of his identity! At that point, there's absolutely no reason why Superman shouldn't just reverse time to wipe out anything that is mildly inconvenient to him, let alone a serious threat!

I've never been a fan of Superman being able to freely time-travel for this reason...at least in the Silver Age comics they were careful to come up with explanations (however weird) of why he couldn't change anything...

[Doctor Know]

RIP Richard Donner.

Thank you for all the unforgettable memories over the decades.
From Superman, to Lethal Weapon, to Scrooged, to Maverick, to X-Men (2000), and others I haven't listed.

We will never forget you.
~Up, Up and Away~

[bat39]

RIP Richard Donner.

Thank you for all the unforgettable memories over the decades.
From Superman, to Lethal Weapon, to Scrooged, to Maverick, to X-Men (2000), and others I haven't listed.

We will never forget you.
~Up, Up and Away~

Damn! I forgot about his work on X-men...

So he basically both invented and reinvented the superhero blockbuster!

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Makes you wonder what Donner's plan for Lois' death originally was. Maybe she wasn't going to die in either film originally and they threw in her death when they moved the time-travel to the climax of the first film.

I think Clark beating up the trucker works if you show that scene before he turns back time. In fact, that would probably be the best version of the scene...Superman isn't worried about injuring the guy too much because he knows he's gonna wipe the timeline anyway so might as well take the chance to indulge in some petty vengeance

But yeah, Superman's time-travel/reversal is pretty much a story-breaking power in these movies. The way it was shown in the first film, it works on an emotional level at least - Lois' death making Superman grief-stricken enough to defy his father's warnings and turn back time. Though it does raise the question of why he doesn't do it everytime someone dies...

In the Donner Cut of the second film though, its even worse. He basically reverses time just to wipe Lois' memories of his identity! At that point, there's absolutely no reason why Superman shouldn't just reverse time to wipe out anything that is mildly inconvenient to him, let alone a serious threat!

I've never been a fan of Superman being able to freely time-travel for this reason...at least in the Silver Age comics they were careful to come up with explanations (however weird) of why he couldn't change anything...

As far as I know, the original script by Puzo did indeed have Lois die at the end of Superman II, which was the emotional impetus for the whole turning back time move, but once the decision was made to put that at the end of the first movie instead, Mank never really wrote a new ending for the second one. The production of Superman was so chaotic, I think the script was constantly in flux, which was complicated by the limited availability of Brando and Hackman.

[DochaDocha]

Condolences to the Donner family.

--
After reading this thread, I feel like it'd be criminal if the Flashpoint movie didn't reference time travel in the Donner films.

[achilles]

Condolences to the Donner family.

--
After reading this thread, I feel like it'd be criminal if the Flashpoint movie didn't reference time travel in the Donner films.

Plus they need a credit like the one before the Superman opening titles, for the film's late DP in that case. It would be a nice acknowledgement.

[bat39]

Plus they need a credit like the one before the Superman opening titles, for the film's late DP in that case. It would be a nice acknowledgement.

Well with certain rumors going around regarding Superman in the Flash film...I think some kind of tribute to Donner makes sense.

[achilles]

Gene Hackman popped up on social media and told the story of how Donnor "tricked" him into shaving off his mustache which he had used for five straight movies at that point, (A Bridge Too Far, Bite the Bullet, and Night Moves among them, all wonderful movies pretty much better than anything made today), by agreeing to shave off his own mustache. Keeping in mind Hackman had never met Donnor before then. So the nervous make-up person (who was aware what was going on), shaved Hackman's mustache first. When Hackman called on Donnor to so the same as promised, Donnor simply peeled it off, (it was a make up department jod, very realistic). Donnor himself was nervous at that point, as he noted Hackman was a big guy and he thought Hackman was about to kick his butt, but after turning a few colors he normally isn't, Hackman calmed down and laughed at the joke. I gather Hackman, who you'll recall is...very cranky at best on set, requiring the great Bill Murray in one movie to serve as a Hackman whisperer to calm the man down. Not a guy to hide if he didn't like you, I'm guessing.

But he seemed to like Donnor very much.

[bat39]

Gene Hackman popped up on social media and told the story of how Donnor "tricked" him into shaving off his mustache which he had used for five straight movies at that point, (A Bridge Too Far, Bite the Bullet, and Night Moves among them, all wonderful movies pretty much better than anything made today), by agreeing to shave off his own mustache. Keeping in mind Hackman had never met Donnor before then. So the nervous make-up person (who was aware what was going on), shaved Hackman's mustache first. When Hackman called on Donnor to so the same as promised, Donnor simply peeled it off, (it was a make up department jod, very realistic). Donnor himself was nervous at that point, as he noted Hackman was a big guy and he thought Hackman was about to kick his butt, but after turning a few colors he normally isn't, Hackman calmed down and laughed at the joke. I gather Hackman, who you'll recall is...very cranky at best on set, requiring the great Bill Murray in one movie to serve as a Hackman whisperer to calm the man down. Not a guy to hide if he didn't like you, I'm guessing.

But he seemed to like Donnor very much.

Damn! Now I can't get the visual of moustachioed Lex Luthor out of my head

[Soubhagya]

It is a huge loss for film lovers and Superman lovers everywhere. Condolences to friends and family.

[DABellWrites]

Richard Donner was born in 1930. He was eight when Action Comics hit the newsstands. Now he died at 91. Makes you wonder if he had all the issues.

[kryptonian]

We need a complete fan edit that edits Superman II(Richard donner cut) with Kathryn Ross‘s Superman the final cut


The long movie that Donner would have wanted