BattleBeast (Invincible) VS Post Crisis Darkseid

[Cody]

I'm not sure how you can claim he's not in the same weightclass as Thragg when he went toe-to-toe with Thragg non-stop for days, after having deliberately cut himself open to even things up, and did some of most lasting damage we ever see Thragg take.

I specifically said that he was close, just like how WW is to a Kryptonian(if not closer in this case), and indeed Thragg still shown to be stronger and tougher than BB during their fight, but BB was tenacious and fought like a wild animal and was close enough to Thraggs ability that he made up for it.

Not sure how that translates to "not being in the same weight class" since that is like saying WW isn't either despite the physical gap between her and a Kryptonian being kinda small.

Like, he did better than final "random atomic restructuring power-up," Invincible did, who really only won because of help from Robot and the fact they are fighting on the Sun.

Robot didn't really add much to the fight, his machines were torn a part as soon as they appeared, and the sun was doing as much to Mark as it was to Thragg, so I'd say Mark did a heck of a lot better since he wasn't being maimed by Thraggs attacks.

In the context of the series, Battle Beast is an absolute monster.

Never said he wasn't, he is just below Mark and Thragg, but above everyone else, and makes up for any difference between him and the previous two with his superior skill and experience as a fighting maniac. Not sure what the issue with that is

[Cody]

To put it in another way; BB still had his teeth and claws as weapons, which he used to great effect to make up for the small physical gap between the two(like when he bit into Thraggs face for example).

One had fists, and slightly superior strength, the other was close, and had sharp claws and teeth that could cut and maim Thragg. This is part of what I meant.

[Nik Hasta]

I specifically said that he was close, just like how WW is to a Kryptonian, and indeed Thragg still shown to be stronger and tougher than BB during their fight, but BB was tenacious and fought like a wild animal and was close enough to Thraggs ability that he made up for it.

Not sure how that translates to "not being in the same weight class" since that is like saying WW isn't either despite the physical gap between her and a Kryptonian being kinda small.

I'll quote your words here:

I do not see Battle beast being as strong, fast, or durable as Thragg, but makes up for it by being close enough that his skill and experience

Given that Battle Beast has all of... what, four feats in the series, that doesn't give us much to go on but they are as follows.

- Casually destroying Invincible, Bulletproof and Black Samson and being pissed off at how weak they are on earth.
- Assisting Nolan and Allen in escaping Viltrumite jail and killing a bog standard Viltrumite on his own.
- Fighting in the Viltrumite war and killing some bog standard Viltrumites and being thrown away into space by Thragg when he went for him.
- Fighting Thragg for multiple days despite deliberately cutting himself open at the start of it.

He is consistently presented as significantly above standard Viltrumite and has a protracted brawl with Thragg, again for days. Given that Thragg was left unconscious and mauled from the effort of putting him down, I don't see how you can argue that he's somehow significantly weaker than him.

As Sharp says, you're not going to be able to fight someone for literally days on end if one has a significant advantage of speed, strength and durability over the other. Also, to dig into this a bit more:

indeed Thragg still shown to be stronger and tougher than BB during their fight

When? The fight is largely done in montage and, to my recollection, there's no shot that shows Thragg specifically outpowering Battle Beast or being shown as faster than him. It's presented as an even brawl.

Robot didn't really add much to the fight, his machines were torn a part as soon as they appeared, and the sun was doing as much to Mark as it was to Thragg, so I'd say Mark did a heck of a lot better since he wasn't being maimed by Thraggs attacks.

Neither was Battle Beast though, he fought Thragg for longer and didn't get torn apart either by attacks that hit him. Mark specifically monologues that it's Robot's suit protecting him from the Sun that keeps him in the fight and why he ultimately beats Thragg.

[Cody]

These scans here tell me that Thragg has a bit of a physical edge, but through grit, skill, tenacity, and animal like fighting via teeth and claws, BB made up for it.

[Cody]

Neither was Battle Beast though, he fought Thragg for longer and didn't get torn apart either by attacks that hit him. Mark specifically monologues that it's Robot's suit protecting him from the Sun that keeps him in the fight and why he ultimately beats Thragg.

I don't recall him saying that, but that his friends are helping him, which alone gives him strength, as that armor was immediately destroyed almost as soon as it got on Mark, like, almost immediately smashed to pieces, unable to keep up with them.

[Nik Hasta]

These scans here tell me that Thragg has a bit of a physical edge, but through grit, skill, tenacity, and animal like fighting via teeth and claws, BB made up for it.

So you're posting one scene that shows Battle Beast physically holding Thragg down and choking him and another scene where Thragg hits Battle Beast three times and he doesn't seem to especially care as an example of Thragg's physical dominance?

I don't see how this convincing of some perceived superiority of strength, speed and durability on Thragg's part myself.

[Sharpandpointies]

My only thought is that if that is the end of the fight, or close to it, then there's no surprise that Thraag has the upper hand. After days of fighting, someone is going to be winning, someone else is going to be losing, and the damage is going to start piling up.

And as an example of 'really, really close to each other', that first scan showing Beast biting Thraag also has Battle Beast basically holding Thraag down and strangling him, while Thraag is doing his best to shove him off (and it's not working out that great).

I don't think it's really that important, mind. The important point is that Beast can easily put in a fight against Thraag, and duke it out with him as an equal for DAYS. Thraag being a guy who treats even STRONG Viltrumites like garbage.

If normal Viltrumites are busting mountains down as collateral for their fights, I'm having a really, really hard time seeing Battle Beast NOT being a fair dip into the Class 100 category - like, not exactly Class 100 Lite is what I'm saying.

[Nik Hasta]

My only thought is that if that is the end of the fight, or close to it, then there's no surprise that Thraag has the upper hand. After days of fighting, someone is going to be winning, someone else is going to be losing, and the damage is going to start piling up.

Some notes for context.

These scans are not sequential and neither are from the end of the fight.

The second page posted, takes place very near the beginning of the fight shortly after Battle Beast has deliberately slit himself open to make him even with Thragg. They are both comparatively fresh at this point and will continue to fight in this state for days to come.

The story is structured such that, after the fight starts, we then go view other events elsewhere and check back in periodically as the fight goes on. The first scan Cody posted is the second time we check back in and it's not until the fourth check-in that it's clocked "they have been going for days," and after that it's not until the sixth and final check in that fight actually ends.

[Nik Hasta]

I don't recall him saying that, but that his friends are helping him, which alone gives him strength, as that armor was immediately destroyed almost as soon as it got on Mark, like, almost immediately smashed to pieces, unable to keep up with them.

Mark's monologue is like, paraphrasing here, "My enemy has given me his greatest weapon to protect me. I wish I could use it, there are weapons in here that could hurt you. But it will melt in moments anyway. Where is your protection, Thragg?"

The suit then lasts about three or four exchanges of them hitting each other, while it is melting and then breaks. Earlier in the fight it's commented that the pain of being in the corona/atmosphere (not sure what the right word is) of the Sun is extremely painful to them both and is making Thragg sluggish, made all the worse when they both take a dip in the actual Sun and get their skin burnt off.

I think the intention of the scene, along with Mark monologuing about how he's fighting for something outside of his own strength (unlike Thragg) is intended to highlight that Robot's suit was a key factor. It may have been moments but it was several exchanges where he was protected and Thragg was not.

He also does get his forearm bone snapped pretty clean by a punch from Thragg once the suit is off.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Mark's monologue is like, paraphrasing here, "My enemy has given me his greatest weapon to protect me. I wish I could use it, there are weapons in here that could hurt you. But it will melt in moments anyway. Where is your protection, Thragg?"

Pretty spot on actually.

The suit then lasts about three or four exchanges of them hitting each other, while it is melting and then breaks. Earlier in the fight it's commented that the pain of being in the corona/atmosphere (not sure what the right word is) of the Sun is extremely painful to them both and is making Thragg sluggish, made all the worse when they both take a dip in the actual Sun and get their skin burnt off.

I think the intention of the scene, along with Mark monologuing about how he's fighting for something outside of his own strength (unlike Thragg) is intended to highlight that Robot's suit was a key factor. It may have been moments but it was several exchanges where he was protected and Thragg was not.

He also does get his forearm bone snapped pretty clean by a punch from Thragg once the suit is off.

He actually snaps it by grabbing it, or at least that's what it looked like on the page. To counter that though, Invincible wins the fight by tearing his throat with his teeth. Buuuuuut, by the time Thragg's throat is torn out though, the dude has lost most of his skin, the 'non-essential' cartilage (his nose is gone, ears) and is basically the spitting image of a Ghoul from Fallout. So I'd definitely agree that the suit Robot gave Invincible helped him stay "more alive" than Thragg long enough to eke out a win. Fight lasts seven pages, suit lasts three... so a little less than half the fight.

[Captain Morgan]

I'll point out that if you're trying to argue BB and Thragg weren't just matching stats against each other, Thragg has a really significant advantage: flight. Which he seems to be utilizing quite effectively in one of those scans.

And BB didn't use one of his signature features: weapons. Yes, he has fangs and claws, but he usually preferred to use a sword or mace. Which he discarded at the start of the fight to keep things even.

That, and... While many Viltrulmites are low end class 100, I agree with that Thragg, Battle Beast, and end of series Mark are not. Thragg's performance puts him well into the post crisis Kryptonian bracket, IMO.

[Cody]

I'll point out that if you're trying to argue BB and Thragg weren't just matching stats against each other, Thragg has a really significant advantage: flight. Which he seems to be utilizing quite effectively in one of those scans.

And BB didn't use one of his signature features: weapons. Yes, he has fangs and claws, but he usually preferred to use a sword or mace. Which he discarded at the start of the fight to keep things even.

That, and... While many Viltrulmites are low end class 100, I agree with that Thragg, Battle Beast, and end of series Mark are not. Thragg's performance puts him well into the post crisis Kryptonian bracket, IMO.

There is nothing to suggest Thragg is even near post crisis Kryptonian "shatters moon with punches, can take planet busting attacks and keep trucking, significant fraction of light" post crisis Kryptonian. At all. If we have feats of Viltrumites having moon busting strength, and the durability to withstand a planet busting attack and not die, then great. But none of their feats come close to that. At all.

[Captain Morgan]

There is nothing to suggest Thragg is even near post crisis Kryptonian "shatters moon with punches, can take planet busting attacks and keep trucking, significant fraction of light" post crisis Kryptonian. At all. If we have feats of Viltrumites having moon busting strength, and the durability to withstand a planet busting attack and not die, then great. But none of their feats come close to that. At all.

Superman never destroyed a moon with his punches. He took out a couple by ramming into them at near light speeds, with various sizes of moons and damages to himself. And what planet busting attacks are you referencing exactly? Finally, I didn't make a reference to speed, just to strength. Speed is utterly irrelevant since Darkseid has no feats for matching Clark there.

Edit: Honestly, man, your idea of the power scaling in DC comics feels a lot like you've read respect threads and not the actual comics.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Edit: Honestly, man, your idea of the power scaling in DC comics feels a lot like you've read respect threads and not the actual comics.

Pretty close to fact, this.

[wjowski]

Yeah, Battlebeast screwed Thragg up bad to the point where he passed out afterwards from what I recall. Might have won if he hadn't deliberately injured himself to make the fight 'fair'. Keeping in mind Thragg is someone that could casually impale Omni-man with his bare hands. And BB left this guy so badly injured he needed immediate medical attention after their fight.