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  1. #31
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    This conversation makes me think there is some kind of "quality vs quantity" type of thing going on when it comes to discussion of Diana's characterization.

  2. #32
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    What do you mean?

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    I'm with Agent Z on this. Perez defined modern Diana and to say he wasn't influential on modern WW writers especially Simone and Rucka (who've cited him as an influence several times), is blatantly false. They may have had different 'feels' as writers but they are building off of what Perez created. Even the upcoming WW: Historia is using stuff that Perez introduced like the 'Well of Souls'. Jiminez even started out as a Perez imitator on his run. Perez defined modern Diana and his take remains evergreen.

  4. #34
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I'm discussing characterization not worldbuilding, themes and plots.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    What do you mean?



    There seems to be a division between how "fun" the story is vs how well written it is. On one hand you will have fans who seem to be able to forgive anything so long as Diana fits their subjective idea of fun (remember, what is fun depends very heavily on the person) whereas others put more emphasis on how competently the story is written.

    I noticed something similar with how some people saw WW 1984 vs the first movie. People praised the former for having brighter colors, a Diana who was (in my view) superficially compassionate and used the lasso more. The latter party liked the first movie because it was well acted and directed. While they liked Diana's compassion it was because that was done well and used appropriately in compelling circumstances instead of awkwardly shoved in because that is what people expect of Diana, regardless of context.

    Or to put it simply, people like Messner-Loebs give fans what they want, Perez gives people what is needed.

    Just my observation of course.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-23-2021 at 09:45 AM.

  6. #36
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I'm discussing characterization not worldbuilding, themes and plots.
    Even characterization wise they are building off of what Perez did. His Diana was fun, compassionate, curious and everything a modern Diana should be and was even willing to do what was necessary to save the day (killing Circe). She wasn't like a 'good Christian girl bound by duty' at all.

    You have been mistaking your subjective opinion for an objective fact.

  7. #37
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    To get this back on topic, I don't think Diana needs to have any specific flaws but she doesn't have to be perfect. Basically, what mistakes or trespasses she makes depends on the story and how it is handled.

  8. #38
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There seems to be a division between how "fun" the story is vs how well written it is. On one hand you will have fans who seem to be able to forgive anything so long as Diana fits their subjective idea of fun (remember, what is fun depends very heavily on the person) whereas others put more emphasis on how competently the story is written.
    Don't you realize that "well written" is just your opinion too? I think it's quite disrespectful and pretentitious for you to say that Perez is well written and imply that WML is just fluff. In fact, I don't think Perez writes characters well in his WW run (which is all I've ever read of his). They don't feel like actual people. He writes wrote some interesting stories, but WMB does to.

    But fine let's move on from this topic, because I don't think there's a positive end to this discussion.
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-23-2021 at 01:15 PM.

  9. #39
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post

    You have been mistaking your subjective opinion for an objective fact.
    The way Simone wrote Diana is totally different from Perez. Look at these panels and tell me if they sound like something that the Diana from the 80s would ever say.
    Attachment 111763Attachment 111766
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    Last edited by Alpha; 07-23-2021 at 10:43 AM.

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  11. #41
    Astonishing Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Bruh, how is any of those outside the boundaries of what Perez established? One of them is even from the fight with Captain Nazi where she uses the Lass of Truth to peer into his soul and see what made him that way. Perez had her literally do the same thing in his run when she used the lasso to show Ares the ultimate consequence of war.

  12. #42
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The way Simone wrote Diana is totally different from Perez. Look at these panels and tell me if they sound like something that the Diana from the 80s would ever say.
    Attachment 111763Attachment 111766
    3.jpg
    Isn't this the one from the Secret Six which guest starred Wonder Woman? And then she jobbed out to the Banshee wannabe? And the Banshee never got her comeuppance from Diana! Wow, great respect for Wonder Woman again, and this time it came from a Wonder Woman writer.

  13. #43
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Isn't this the one from the Secret Six which guest starred Wonder Woman? And then she jobbed out to the Banshee wannabe? And the Banshee never got her comeuppance from Diana! Wow, great respect for Wonder Woman again, and this time it came from a Wonder Woman writer.
    Hold up, you even have a problem with how Gail Simone of all people treats Diana? What Wonder Woman writer do you actually like in terms of power levels?

  14. #44
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    "Before I forget about Mercy, about honor, where is my mother"

    "Feel free to get up again coward. And I'll happily show you what Max learned to his regret"

    "Assuming you don't mind being a castrati afterwards of course" (what exactly was she gonna do to his neck brah?)

    "I am Wonder Woman and you've managed to make me slightly peeved"

    "Hello Nazi... You'll forgive me if I take offense"

    I don't recall a single moment of sass or brutal threats or bravado in the Perez run. To be clear, Simone also had moments where Diana talked about peace instead of violence, and other stuff like that, but she was constantly being sassy and agressive without regretting what she did.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    A consequence of her warm and loving nature is she forms emotional bonds with people she simply doesn't have the time to maintain. She'll give you great life changing advice that makes you feel close to her and like the only person in her world, then she'll disappear on you as she goes off to save the day for someone else. Normally that's fine and you can move on and get over it, unless knowing her causes one of her enemies to take an interest in you.
    But that's not a flaw. That's a virtue that may have unforeseen consequences. Now if she was prone to looking before leaping, overestimating herself, socially awkward, a horrible diplomat, has a drug problem, maybe isn't so nice----those are all flaws of one sort or another, not virtues disguised as flaws. And flaws are very important to characters, especially the ones you want to focus on. Even Superman has a flaw of sorts, he's a bit naive in some versions. Batman is a collection of character flaws who somehow manages to function.

    This IMO is Diana's biggest problem, one that even Gail Simone sort of acknowledged in her run through an internal monologue of Power Girl, her sort of opponent for the issue. It was all about how she wanted to punch Diana in the face just to see how she'd react. And that she thought Diana was a Miss Perfect. JLU had Hawkgirl noting much the same. I think writers should focus a bit more on her flaws and making them clear to the readers without simply telling them.

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