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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    To get this back on topic, I don't think Diana needs to have any specific flaws but she doesn't have to be perfect. Basically, what mistakes or trespasses she makes depends on the story and how it is handled.
    I think she does need specific flaws. IMO, readers identify more with flawed characters than with perfect ones. And with specific flaws, not just the nebulous "not perfect". And real people tend to have very specific flaws, or at least things they may themselves perceive as flaws. Tony Stark is another great example, though not really what I would envision as being at all similar to Diana. I don't even care what her flaw(s) are, just that they aren't forced, seem natural, and present her with a real struggle.
    Last edited by achilles; 07-23-2021 at 12:14 PM.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Dejection isn't and should not be portrayed as a sin.

    I don't think Diana being depressed is working against the character because there isn't anything about her character that makes it impossible.
    Tell that to Evagrius Ponticus.

    Of course it's not impossible to tell such a story. All I've said is that the writer has set a higher bar for themselves in terms of character work than if they want to present a Diana who is angry or prideful.

    As for Pérez's characterisation of Diana, I largely agree with Alpha. Pérez told several great Wonder Woman stories, did some excellent world-building, and firmly claimed a turf for Diana, but as for Diana's personality, he piled on gravitas, to use G Willow Wilson's words. Pérez's Diana certainly wasn't depressed, but she didn't seem to have as fun as Marston's Diana had nearly all the time.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #48
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Hold up, you even have a problem with how Gail Simone of all people treats Diana? What Wonder Woman writer do you actually like in terms of power levels?
    I didn't think her run was all that great, just ok. As you know, I don't like runs where Wonder Woman gets depowered, and this happened twice during Gail's writing of her. Once it was called 'Ends of the Earth' I think which lasted 4 issues, and then the Conan teamup which I think was also 4 issues. So that was a big negative for me with respect to Gail. And she was also credited with writing the first Wonder Woman animated movie (I think there were more writers), and she was writing or had written Wonder Woman at that time, and guess what, she was depowered. She couldn't fly! You mean to tell me that Gail forgot to have her fly in her first solo animated movie? I think Gail is more in her element when she writes street level characters like her Birds of Prey series. She doesn't do well with the top tier super powered characters, at least that is how I see it. The Banshee job that Diana did still sticks in my mind because I think she was writing the Wonder Woman solo series at the same time. Way to respect the character! Another job defeat for Diana so it could make her new team, the Secret Six, look all that more awesome!

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    I think she does need specific flaws. IMO, readers identify more with flawed characters than with perfect ones.
    Not necessarily. There are plenty of ways to get readers to identify or relate to fictional characters. With Diana, I think the 2017 movie showed the best way to do so for Diana: have her relate to the characters around her. Arguably, that was another thing that the WW 1984 movie failed to do as well as the first movie.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #50
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I really think your view of Perez's Diana is extremely inaccurate. Diana expressed that she didn't take joy in hurting others but to call it "evangelical shame" is a great exaggeration. She wasn't boring just because she was morally grounded.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Bruh, how is any of those outside the boundaries of what Perez established? One of them is even from the fight with Captain Nazi where she uses the Lass of Truth to peer into his soul and see what made him that way. Perez had her literally do the same thing in his run when she used the lasso to show Ares the ultimate consequence of war.
    Some good stuff, folks.

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Isn't this the one from the Secret Six which guest starred Wonder Woman? And then she jobbed out to the Banshee wannabe? And the Banshee never got her comeuppance from Diana! Wow, great respect for Wonder Woman again, and this time it came from a Wonder Woman writer.
    Yeah, Wonder Woman should never lose a fight ever, under ANY circumstances! Even specific ones like the opponent catching her with a secret attack that was so dangerous she knocked herself out doing it...

    Wait a minute...

    What have we here? Wonder Woman jobbing to Hades and needing to be rescued by Ares of all people?! Greg Rucka showing NO respect for Wonder Woman!


    And what's this?! Wonder Woman jobbing to Circe?! Why, Diana didn't even land a single punch on her the entire issue and only survived because Hermes rescued her!
    George Perez has NO respect for Wonder Woman! What were they thinking letting this guy work on her?!


    In all seriousness though, I actually liked Jeannette. I kind of hoped when Secret Six ran its course, since she's a essentially a villain with no hero of her own, she might get incorporated into Wonder Woman's rogues. Or at least become a recurring antagonist. She was cool.

    She hasn't been doing anything else. Another casualty of the New 52.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  7. #52
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    As you know, I don't like runs where Wonder Woman gets depowered, and this happened twice during Gail's writing of her. Once it was called 'Ends of the Earth' I think which lasted 4 issues, and then the Conan teamup which I think was also 4 issues. So that was a big negative for me with respect to Gail. And she was also credited with writing the first Wonder Woman animated movie (I think there were more writers), and she was writing or had written Wonder Woman at that time, and guess what, she was depowered. She couldn't fly! You mean to tell me that Gail forgot to have her fly in her first solo animated movie?
    So is Greg Rucka the best Wonder Woman writer to you? Is it Perez? Is it Jiminez? Is it Marston?

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I think classically, superheroes don't have glaring weaknesses or flaws. They have exploitable characteristics that bad guys can leverage, like trying to protect civilians while simultaneously fighting supervillains, or basic human emotions like being overprotective of a loved one (which isn't necessarily a flaw, but more of an attribute that's situationally bad). I think that, by and large, is fine for most stories. I know that can be pretty boring, but maybe it's generally less problematic than trying to find one glaring flaw.

    Maybe I'd rather they just focused on good ideas having bad consequences. Those aren't flaws, but it gives audiences the sense of the hero's lack of perfection and total control of a situation, i.e. relatability.

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Come to think of it, that's another way to look at why the first Wonder Woman movie worked in a way that the second one didn't. Wonder Woman in the first movie carried passion first, with anger (though usually controlled until the very end) breaking through in various ways, and her pride had a tendency to turn into arrogance at times. But the second movie presented a Diana who was depressed (sadness or dejection), and it couldn't make it work.
    I actually liked that they addressed the loneliness Diana would feel watching people she cares about grow old and die all around her in WW84.

    Where they messed up was making it all about Steve with her saying things like she only feels joy when he's around and she'll never love again without him. That was where the dropped the ball.
    I otherwise thought it was a sound concept to explore with her reluctant to connect to people knowing she'll only lose them eventually, clinging to the past in the form of Steve, and ultimately needing to learn isolating herself from people is only worse.

    Good idea in conception. Hurt by poor execution.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    And she was also credited with writing the first Wonder Woman animated movie (I think there were more writers), and she was writing or had written Wonder Woman at that time, and guess what, she was depowered. She couldn't fly!
    And how do you know that was her decision and not Michael Jelenic, the guy who wrote the actual screenplay?
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  11. #56
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    I didn't think her run was all that great, just ok. As you know, I don't like runs where Wonder Woman gets depowered, and this happened twice during Gail's writing of her. Once it was called 'Ends of the Earth' I think which lasted 4 issues, and then the Conan teamup which I think was also 4 issues. So that was a big negative for me with respect to Gail. And she was also credited with writing the first Wonder Woman animated movie (I think there were more writers), and she was writing or had written Wonder Woman at that time, and guess what, she was depowered. She couldn't fly! You mean to tell me that Gail forgot to have her fly in her first solo animated movie? I think Gail is more in her element when she writes street level characters like her Birds of Prey series. She doesn't do well with the top tier super powered characters, at least that is how I see it. The Banshee job that Diana did still sticks in my mind because I think she was writing the Wonder Woman solo series at the same time. Way to respect the character! Another job defeat for Diana so it could make her new team, the Secret Six, look all that more awesome!
    Eh? You mean the Banshee wail that slips super-beings into comas is miss-matched jobbing? (And she didn't need Martian Manhunters help to wake up)

    ~I just keep swimming through these threads~

  12. #57
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    And how do you know that was her decision and not Michael Jelenic, the guy who wrote the actual screenplay?
    I don't know who had the ultimate decision about that, but Gail was writing the solo series and they have a glaring admission of Diana not being able to fly in her first solo animated movie? Yet she had been flying since the Perez reboot as well as the Justice League animated series? Where was Gail in all of this that they didn't think enough of Wonder Woman to let her fly? Would they have nerfed Superman by just making him leap tall buildings instead of flight?

    We needed people like Gail to make a stink about this, but I don't get the sense that they care or respect the character enough to give a damn.

  13. #58
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    We needed people like Gail to make a stink about this, but I don't get the sense that they care or respect the character enough to give a damn.
    What writers respect Wonder Woman in your opinion?

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    We needed people like Gail to make a stink about this, but I don't get the sense that they care or respect the character enough to give a damn.
    Sadly, for 95%+ of all creatives, making a stink is a great way to make sure you don't get more work. And I think you seriously overestimate the room for radical decisionmaking that writers have compared to the editorial office (equivalent) for long-running franchises.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  15. #60
    Spectacular Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    What book is it in which Silver Banshee defeats Diana? Isn't Silver Banshee typically a Supergirl villain? If SB can go mano a mano with a yellow-sun-powered Kryptonian, I don't think it's outrageous to think she can inflict pain on Wonder Woman.

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