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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I mean, the Perez version of Diana is much less complex than Gail Simone, William Messner-Loebs, or Greg Rucka.

    To be clear, I really like the Jiminez run. I just don't think that take on Diana is very charismatic. The Lois Lane interview is the perfect example of Diana having a lot of good qualities, but not being engaging to me. His take on Donna Troy however is totally on point.

    Rucka and Simone built on what Perez did and I see nothing complex about Messner-Loebs's version. Or any character in that book that he wrote. Even Artemis, the character he is known for creating, wasn't particularly complex under his pen.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    No, I'm not. Rather that portraying a depressed Diana is working against the character rather than with the character, and thus it's a lot harder to do and easily makes her appear out of character.

    If I look at dejection as a sin, I think Batman is a much more natural character to use.
    Dejection isn't and should not be portrayed as a sin.

    I don't think Diana being depressed is working against the character because there isn't anything about her character that makes it impossible.

  3. #18
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    The Perez version of Diana reminds me a lot of the actress Andie Macdowell. As written by Perez, Diana behaves like the ideal Christian girl (though praying to the greek gods instead of the abrahamic god). She is an immensely dignified woman that feels the need to pacify the violence in the world, and is hurt by the savagery of others.

    With her things are either evangelically blissfull or really hurtfully violent. She normally reacts to violence with sorrow (both grief and sadness) or supplicating for others to help/ stop. Ocassionally she also feels anger and immediately afterswards feels sadness for what the world forces her to be. Ultimately she is driven by duty and it seems like it's all she thinks about.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Rucka and Simone built on what Perez did and I see nothing complex about Messner-Loebs's version. Or any character in that book that he wrote. Even Artemis, the character he is known for creating, wasn't particularly complex under his pen.
    What are you talking about? Simone's take on Diana was totally different from Perez and Jiminez in her voice.

    As per Greg Rucka, the Rebirth version of Diana is similar to Perez, but in Greg Rucka's first run I don't think he was using much of the Perez incarnation. Her voice wasn't evangelical at all.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    What are you talking about? Simone's take on Diana was totally different from Perez and Jiminez in her voice.

    As per Greg Rucka, the Rebirth version of Diana is similar to Perez, but in Greg Rucka's first run I don't think he was using much of the Perez incarnation. Her voice wasn't evangelical at all.
    Neither was Perez's.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    The Perez version of Diana reminds me a lot of the actress Andie Macdowell. As written by Perez, Diana behaves like the ideal Christian girl (though praying to the greek gods instead of the abrahamic god). She is an immensely dignified woman that feels the need to pacify the violence in the world, and is hurt by the savagery of others.
    The funny thing, it that this sounds an awful lot like what a lot of Marston fans think Diana should be like.

  7. #22
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    And I know people here really don't care about the William Messner-Loebs run, but he's the one that added lots of characterization to Diana post crisis. She loved the thrill of danger (the astronaut story in issue 66), she could be terrifying even to the joker (issue 97), she was a workaholic even while working at taco bell (issue 75 and 76). She was the kind of person that believed there was a lot of dignity in serving people by feeding (again taco bell) and who expected her boss Hoppy to be as demanding of her as of others, regardless of the fact that Diana can fly and lift cars with her bare hands.

    In issue 76 Diana feels guilt over wanting revenge on Circe and even lies to herself about how fragile she feels, but then breaks down and re-accepts her vulnerability. His Diana feels lonely while distant from her family (and yet finds lots of new friends throughout the run) and feels guilt at her reliance on money. His Diana is as sassy as Simone's would be a decade later.
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-23-2021 at 08:08 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    And I know people here really don't care about the William Messner-Loebs run, but he's the one that added lots of characterization to Diana post crisis. She loved the thrill of danger (the astronaut story in issue 66), she could be terrifying even to the joker (issue 97), she was a workaholic even while working at taco bell (issue 75 and 76). She was the kind of person the belive there was a lot of dignity in serving people by feeding (again taco bell) and who expected her boss Hoppy to be as demanding of her as of others, regardless of the fact that Diana can fly and lift cars with her bare hands.

    In issue 76 Diana feels guilt over wanting revenge on Circe and even lies to herself about how much she fragile to she feels, but then breaks down and re-accepts her vulnerability. His Diana feels lonely while distant from her family (and yet finds lots of new friends throughout the run) and feels guilt at her reliance on money. His Diana is as sassy as Simone's would be a decade later.
    Most of this stuff was either done by Perez or set up by him. About the only thing you can credit him for is her being a danger junkie which is neither inherently interesting nor does it make her complex.

    Diana under Perez made mistakes which she learned and grew from. She didn't know everything nor did she pretend to. She could be vulnerable but was never shamed, demonized or belittled for it by the story. She had a variety of emotions. In other words, she was a person not a meme or social media hashtag.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-23-2021 at 08:02 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Neither was Perez's.
    Yes she was. The Perez take on Diana did everything out of a sense of duty and all she could feel was bliss, sorrow or anger and shame.

    And compare her to the overconfident Simone version with lots of sassy quips, a strong and imposing left hook and kind of judgemental. Of course Simone's Diana could also talk about vulnerability and love and peace, but she wasn't about the duty gods and the amazons placed on her. She was doing things for her own reasons.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Most of this stuff was either done by Perez or set up by him. About the only thing you can credit him for is her being a danger junkie which is neither inherently interesting nor does it make her complex.
    Give me examples of Diana doing these things I mentioned about William Messner Loebs in the Perez run. And Diana wasn't an adrenaline junkie in the William Messner-Loebs run. She just enjoyed challenges. But she didn't seek out danger carelessly.

    Oh, and the Messner-Loebs version of Diana could be just as beautiful of a soul as during the Perez era. Case in point Wonder Woman 100 and what Diana says to Artemis as she dies in her arms.
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-23-2021 at 08:04 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana under Perez made mistakes which she learned and grew from. She didn't know everything nor did she pretend to. She could be vulnerable but was never shamed, demonized or belittled for it by the story. She had a variety of emotions. In other words, she was a person not a meme or social media hashtag.
    That's true of the Messner-Loebs run as well. But she also had a lot of other qualities and struggles, and interests along with those. My point is that the Messner-loebs run had all the qualities that Perez wrote, plus a whole lot more interesting things to her. And she didn't feel an evangelical shame at how agressive she had to be because she knew it was necessary and that it didn't reduce how much she valued life.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Give me examples of Diana doing these things I mentioned about William Messner Loebs in the Perez run. And Diana wasn't an adrenaline junkie in the William Messner-Loebs run. She just enjoyed challenges. But she didn't seek out danger carelessly.

    Oh, and the Messner-Loebs version of Diana could be just as beautiful of a soul as during the Perez era. Case in point Wonder Woman 100 and what Diana says to Artemis as she dies in her arms.
    Perez's Diana was shown to take joy in several things one of them being flying. She also wasn't a slave to the gods the way you are describing her.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    That's true of the Messner-Loebs run as well. But she also had a lot of other qualities and struggles, and interests along with those. My point is that the Messner-loebs run had all the qualities that Perez wrote, plus a whole lot more interesting things to her. And she didn't feel an evangelical shame at how agressive she had to be because she knew it was necessary and that it didn't reduce how much she valued life.
    I really think your view of Perez's Diana is extremely inaccurate. Diana expressed that she didn't take joy in hurting others but to call it "evangelical shame" is a great exaggeration. She wasn't boring just because she was morally grounded.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I really think your view of Perez's Diana is extremely inaccurate. Diana expressed that she didn't take joy in hurting others but to call it "evangelical shame" is a great exaggeration. She wasn't boring just because she was morally grounded.
    I don't know if you've watched a show on Hulu called "The Great". It's really good. The main character is played by Elle Fanning and it reminds me a lot of the Perez version of Diana, but done well (in my opinion).

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Perez's Diana was shown to take joy in several things one of them being flying. She also wasn't a slave to the gods the way you are describing her.
    That's nothing compared to the many charismatic and fun moments Diana has throughout the whole WLB run. And maybe it's just me, but that car moment makes Diana seem animatronic. She behaves like an imitation of a human being, rather than an actual human being.

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