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  1. #61
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    I don't get why Cheetah needs to be strong enough to trade blows with Diana. If writers need to create a character that's strong enough to knock Wonder Woman around, create one. Cheetah's main strengths should be her speed and intelligence. In real life, Cheetah's are very weak. They're biggest strengths are their speed. So, a humanoid Cheetah should be written that way too.
    Last edited by DABellWrites; 08-01-2021 at 02:20 PM.

  2. #62
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    I don't get why Cheetah needs to be strong enough to trade blows with Diana. If writers need to create a character that's strong enough to knock Wonder Woman around, create one. Cheetah's main strengths should be her speed and intelligence.
    That’s literally what Perez did when he revamped Cheetah though, lol. Same with Johns and Rucka when they revamped her.

    It’s not their fault when other people don’t do their homework.

    Plus any time someone tried to create one (Genocide, Deviation) have fallen flat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    In real life, Cheetah's are very week. They're biggest strengths are their speed. So, a humanoid Cheetah should be written that way too.
    I find that agreement falls apart when in real life humans can’t fly, and you have humans who can fly all the time in comics.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 08-01-2021 at 11:31 AM.
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  3. #63
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    I don't get why Cheetah needs to be strong enough to trade blows with Diana. If writers need to create a character that's strong enough to knock Wonder Woman around, create one. Cheetah's main strengths should be her speed and intelligence. In real life, Cheetah's are very week. They're biggest strengths are their speed. So, a humanoid Cheetah should be written that way too.
    That is what happened in Post Crisis. When Cheetah was revamped. She did not become just a humanoid Cheetah. She was given powers from a God similar to Diana. If she is supposed to survive even just a couple of hits from a serious Diana. Then that alone should put Cheetah far above peak human level. Which means that crappy writing like getting hurt by catwoman or bullets should not happen. Because Diana's hits pack far greater force than that.

  4. #64
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    That’s literally what Perez did when he revamped Cheetah though, lol. Same with Johns and Rucka when they revamped her.

    It’s not their fault when other people don’t do their homework.

    Plus any time someone tried to create one (Genocide, Deviation) have fallen flat.



    I find that agreement falls apart when in real life humans can’t fly, and you have humans who can fly all the time in comics.
    I think the reason those fell flat is that the buildup just wasn't there. If I had my druthers, I'd create a foe opposite of Diana. A champion of some other pantheon, and have them advance their pantheon's agenda independent of what Diana's doing. She starts hearing of them, but for this reason or that, the two never get to come to blows for a while. They're making moves in the background of other arcs, building their threat and name cache. Think of it as two up-and-coming athletes that are at the top of their sport. They keep taking wins all the way to the top so that when they clash, it finally feels like two titans meeting.

    Diana's already at the top, so you need to build a threat to be credible instead of the tried and true method of them being Diana-level in one arc. Superman has new Kryptonians pop up all the time and nobody believes the writer when they tell us "this character can mess Clark up, they have all his powers" because powers or no, he always beats his equals.

    If you want Cheetah to feel strong, or a new character, they need to play the long game. Even when Cheetah mops the floor with Diana (which is rare, if ever), it doesn't feel as deserved because she doesn't get built up. For what it's worth, this can be done with a page each arc showing what she's been up to; the moves she's been making. Presence is important. On any given Sunday, if asked who of Diana's villains is her biggest threat, I'd likely tell you Circe.

    Because every now and then, she actually gets built up (like in JLD). Cheetah has the dubious honor of being Diana's biggest bad/rival, so every writer wants to build the stakes and use her. Like the Joker, it's diminishing returns each time.


    Moreover, I agree entirely. Spider-Man does a helluva lot more than a spider can. I don't see why we should draw the line at Cheetah.
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  5. #65
    Fishy Member I'm a Fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I think the reason those fell flat is that the buildup just wasn't there. If I had my druthers, I'd create a foe opposite of Diana. A champion of some other pantheon, and have them advance their pantheon's agenda independent of what Diana's doing. She starts hearing of them, but for this reason or that, the two never get to come to blows for a while. They're making moves in the background of other arcs, building their threat and name cache. Think of it as two up-and-coming athletes that are at the top of their sport. They keep taking wins all the way to the top so that when they clash, it finally feels like two titans meeting.

    Diana's already at the top, so you need to build a threat to be credible instead of the tried and true method of them being Diana-level in one arc. Superman has new Kryptonians pop up all the time and nobody believes the writer when they tell us "this character can mess Clark up, they have all his powers" because powers or no, he always beats his equals.

    If you want Cheetah to feel strong, or a new character, they need to play the long game. Even when Cheetah mops the floor with Diana (which is rare, if ever), it doesn't feel as deserved because she doesn't get built up. For what it's worth, this can be done with a page each arc showing what she's been up to; the moves she's been making. Presence is important. On any given Sunday, if asked who of Diana's villains is her biggest threat, I'd likely tell you Circe.

    Because every now and then, she actually gets built up (like in JLD). Cheetah has the dubious honor of being Diana's biggest bad/rival, so every writer wants to build the stakes and use her. Like the Joker, it's diminishing returns each time.
    She mopped the floor with Diana in their first encounter (WW vol.2 #9). And Cheetah did have good buildup to her fight with Diana in the desert. But it's been like, 30 years and that's still their best fight.

    But I don't think there is any denying Circe is a bigger threat that Cheetah, at least in terms of raw magical power. Natural strength and speed, that goes to Cheetah, but Circe's got that crazy magic that can do all kinds of things so overall she's the bigger threat.

    But yeah, Cheetah definingly suffers from being to popular. Rucka gave her a cool motive in Rebirth, wanting to go "Kratos" on the Gods and Amazon's but it got botched with the "Year of the Villain" stuff. Orlando saved it somewhat, but it wasn't as big as it could have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Moreover, I agree entirely. Spider-Man does a helluva lot more than a spider can. I don't see why we should draw the line at Cheetah.
    He still can't shoot webs out his butt so I'd say he get the short end of the stick in some regards.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    That’s literally what Perez did when he revamped Cheetah though, lol. Same with Johns and Rucka when they revamped her.

    It’s not their fault when other people don’t do their homework.

    Plus any time someone tried to create one (Genocide, Deviation) have fallen flat.



    I find that agreement falls apart when in real life humans can’t fly, and you have humans who can fly all the time in comics.
    That's true and I agree, but those characters based aren't based off a real animal. Like, if you're going to make her a humanoid Cheetah, it's best to keep her speed as her main strength. Otherwise, she loses the point of being the Cheetah and is just a walking furry.
    And, humans flying is more a longing fantasy than actually anything realistic.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Moreover, I agree entirely. Spider-Man does a helluva lot more than a spider can. I don't see why we should draw the line at Cheetah.
    True, but Spider-Man's main powers still align with what most spiders can do. Spiders are strong for their size, Peter Parker has super-strength. Spiders are fast, he's fast. Spiders can sense danger or prey, Peter can sense danger. Does everything line up perfectly? No, but the main traits do. Cheetahs aren't known for their strengths.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    That's true and I agree, but those characters based aren't based off a real animal. Like, if you're going to make her a humanoid Cheetah, it's best to keep her speed as her main strength. Otherwise, she loses the point of being the Cheetah and is just a walking furry.
    And, humans flying is more a longing fantasy than actually anything realistic.
    Humans becoming animals or half-animals is synonymous with flying as a fantasy and can be found in cave drawings and sculptures dating back ~40,000 years.

    I defiantly think that someone named "Cheetah" should by no means be slow and that her speed should be a highlighted characteristic of her abilities.

    I would agree with you more about Cheetah if she got her powers from Cheetah DNA, but she only ever has that origin in the DCAU (that has been directly stated anyway). Plus there's an extent species of giant cheetah's that she could have gotten the DNA from maybe? That would be more fun than a regular cheetah, I think.

    In most cases, she gets her power from a plant god, a goddess of the hunt, or most recently Wonder Woman herself via janky wish-stone. And many gods in real-world religions, ancient Egypt for example, look part-human part-animal and they diffidently do things regular animals can't.
    Last edited by I'm a Fish; 08-01-2021 at 03:12 PM.
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  9. #69
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    She mopped the floor with Diana in their first encounter (WW vol.2 #9). And Cheetah did have good buildup to her fight with Diana in the desert. But it's been like, 30 years and that's still their best fight.

    But I don't think there is any denying Circe is a bigger threat that Cheetah, at least in terms of raw magical power. Natural strength and speed, that goes to Cheetah, but Circe's got that crazy magic that can do all kinds of things so overall she's the bigger threat.

    But yeah, Cheetah definingly suffers from being to popular. Rucka gave her a cool motive in Rebirth, wanting to go "Kratos" on the Gods and Amazon's but it got botched with the "Year of the Villain" stuff. Orlando saved it somewhat, but it wasn't as big as it could have been.



    He still can't shoot webs out his butt so I'd say he get the short end of the stick in some regards.
    It's been so long since I read Perez that I forgot about that fight. Probably time for a reread.

    Motivation aside, Rebirth hasn't been kind to Barbara Minerva.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    It's been so long since I read Perez that I forgot about that fight. Probably time for a reread.

    Motivation aside, Rebirth hasn't been kind to Barbara Minerva.
    It's been kinder than the end of post-crisis and most of Nu52. I haven't seen any ridiculous Cheetah jobbing since Rebirth, although having her play super-goon to Lex wasn't my cup-of-tea either.
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  11. #71
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Rebirth has treated her far kinder than the New 52 or things towards the end of the pre-Flashpoint DCU. If only because of Rucka's run and nothing too outrageously bad afterward.

    I do agree that Circe is generally more powerful and dangerous, but that can apply to the arch enemies of Superman and Batman as well. Plot armor aside, the Joker is not as wide reaching a threat as Ra's. And Lex is outclassed by Brainiac and Darkseid. They are still without question the respective arches though.

  12. #72
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    It's been kinder than the end of post-crisis and most of Nu52. I haven't seen any ridiculous Cheetah jobbing since Rebirth, although having her play super-goon to Lex wasn't my cup-of-tea either.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Rebirth has treated her far kinder than the New 52 or things towards the end of the pre-Flashpoint DCU. If only because of Rucka's run and nothing too outrageously bad afterward.

    I do agree that Circe is generally more powerful and dangerous, but that can apply to the arch enemies of Superman and Batman as well. Plot armor aside, the Joker is not as wide reaching a threat as Ra's. And Lex is outclassed by Brainiac and Darkseid. They are still without question the respective arches though.
    Fair, but I wouldn't say either of those were kind to her either.
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  13. #73
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Fair, but I wouldn't say either of those were kind to her either.
    Do you mean the Rucka run?

    I think it was very kind to her. It at least nailed her down as a compelling character and where she fits in her life (in a "she's my greatest ongoing failure" capacity).

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Do you mean the Rucka run?

    I think it was very kind to her. It at least nailed her down as a compelling character and where she fits in her life (in a "she's my greatest ongoing failure" capacity).
    Rucka's revamp and Sharps makeover was defiantly the best thing to happen to Cheetah after Perez's run and initial revamp/makeover nearly 30 years prior.
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  15. #75
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Do you mean the Rucka run?

    I think it was very kind to her. It at least nailed her down as a compelling character and where she fits in her life (in a "she's my greatest ongoing failure" capacity).
    Quote Originally Posted by I'm a Fish View Post
    Rucka's revamp and Sharps makeover was defiantly the best thing to happen to Cheetah after Perez's run and initial revamp/makeover nearly 30 years prior.
    I didn't love it because while it did give Cheetah something more interesting going on, making her so sympathetic also somewhat removed her ability to remain Diana's arch enemy. If they positioned someone else to take that slot in Diana's rogues gallery, sure, but nobody truly stepped up and now we're back to heel Cheetah. Believe me, I get it. My favorite Batman villain is Two-Face who Bruce generally looks at as his great failure for similar reasons Diana does Cheetah. It's relatively similar in that respect.

    But you can do that with Two Face because he's not quite The Joker or Lex Luthor. Cheetah, for good or ill, is Diana's counterpart to that equation even if Circe is the better fit.

    It's like reforming Lex. Makes for an interesting story in the short term but ultimately takes away a pretty monumental chess piece.

    So I was pretty opposed to the whole thing and likely why I don't think Rebirth was particularly kind to Cheetah. It kind of put her into this holding pattern where she would never really get to shine as Diana's arch enemy the way we're hoping she does because at the end of the day, Diana needs to put her arms around Cheetah and bring her back into the fold. Compelling? Sure. Interesting? You bet.

    But it just further puts Diana having that one unmistakable arch enemy on hold the same way SM/WW and BM/WW shipping puts Diana on hold for developing her own love interests to prop up the boys.
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