Why many writers fail to write Cheetah be writen as a powerhouse?

[Agent Z]

I mean, Doc Ock has at times been Spider-man's main enemy.

"At times" being the key phrase here and that's only when the Goblin isn't around.

Conceptually, I don't think there's anything about Green Goblin that makes him Spider-man's archenemy,

I can say the same of Octopus.

it's just that since he killed Gwen Stacy most writers seemed to choose him as the one with the most personal vendetta.

That's the number one criteria for being an archenemy.

Even in the Golden Age, I fail to see what would make Eviless fitting for archenemy status.

[Alpha]

I can say the same of Octopus.

I know. I never said Doc Ock was a better candidate than Green Goblin. I think they are conceptually equally good.

That's the number one criteria for being an archenemy.

Is it though? What horrible thing has Lex Luthor done to Superman?

Doomsday, Mister Mxyzptlk and Braniac have probably done worse things.

Metallo, Kryptonite Man and General Zod also have that thing that makes them as personally invested in Superman as Lex Luthor is. The only reason why Lex Luthor is his arch enemy is because he is one of the oldest villains Superman has (though conceptually he is also the most meaningfull). So I don't think "personal vendetta", regardless of interpretation, is the main criteria for arch enemy.

Even in the Golden Age, I fail to see what would make Eviless fitting for archenemy status.

Hey, I'm not saying Eviless is her current arch enemy, I just think she had a better claim in the Golden Age than Cheetah and Paula Von Gunther had. Mars was probably the Arch enemy though.

[DochaDocha]

For Cheetah as the speedster she should have been, Fox had some neat speed scenes with Quicksilver, they would just need to be more serious:

You could've also used Faora's scenes against the US Army, too.



I love the idea of the Faora fight, but if it's lacking in any way, it's the way she rag dolls the troops in that weightless, CGI way. Not saying this idea should not be considered, but it should be built upon in a way to give Cheetah (or the next super speedster) a distinctive-looking action sequence.

[Agent Z]

Is it though? What horrible thing has Lex Luthor done to Superman?

Doomsday, Mister Mxyzptlk and Braniac have probably done worse things.

Metallo, Kryptonite Man and General Zod also have that thing that makes them as personally invested in Superman as Lex Luthor is. The only reason why Lex Luthor is his arch enemy is because he is one of the oldest villains Superman has (though conceptually he is also the most meaningfull). So I don't think "personal vendetta", regardless of interpretation, is the main criteria for arch enemy.

I'll just say this once and for all so as not to derail this thread.

A personal vendetta can come either from battling the hero for a long time or having done something particularly terrible to them. Lex falls into the former category. Mxy and Braniac haven't done anything particularly memorable to Superman and the most memorable thing Doomsday did was kill Superman which was undone almost immediately.

[Gaius]

For what it's worth, I don't think this really was intended as a power. Her bracers are nearly indestructible and she's hitting them very hard at super speed to create a sonic boom.

Rather than be a power, it was her using her tools cleverly.

Right now it's become a full on power, though, which I enjoy less. I thought it was cooler that she was creative with what she had instead of just another power in her suite.

I do like it in the movies (before Snyder's JL overplayed it) but yeah, I did kind of prefer when it was her just being clever with her available powers/tools. Showed how it could also be used offensively without using a sword also like when Captain America throws the shield.

[Perseus]

If you wanna just complain about her being beat up by Catwoman then fine, I agree.

But I'm pretty sure that you pointed at WW84 as an example of Cheetah being weak, which is the part I find totally ridiculous, because Cheetah has never been shown as stronger than she was in WW84. Faster? Sure, she has been faster. But not stronger.

And I think the argument that Cheetah is super strong just because she can throw around Diana, is invalid. You yourself have admitted that Diana's strength is volatile, so why would Cheetah be any more consistent?

Oh wow. Its almost like that's the problem all these threads are about. You're almost getting it.

As for WW84 we have, once again, Cheetah going up against Diana as our only point of reference. First, a Diana that was weakened and not at her full potential and Second, a Diana in a Barbie style armor playing defense until the film went the route of circus o lay. So, again all we're relying on is scaling.

[Alpha]

My point is, what makes you say that Wonder Woman was at a powerful level when she was fighting Cheetah?

If you base Cheetah's strength on the fact that she sometimes throws Diana around, even though Diana herself has often not been the "planetary level" you think she should be, you really have no reason to say that Cheetah oughta be any stronger than she was in WW84. Because by all accounts, every time Diana fought Cheetah, she could just as well be a street level character, unless we actually see proof that Diana at that point can lift a submarine or something.

[Perseus]

My point is, what makes you say that Wonder Woman was at a powerful level when she was fighting Cheetah?

If you base Cheetah's strength on the fact that she sometimes throws Diana around, even though Diana herself has often not been the "planetary level" you think she should be, you really have no reason to say that Cheetah oughta be any stronger than she was in WW84. Because by all accounts, every time Diana fought Cheetah, she could just as well be a street level character, unless we actually see proof that Diana at that point can lift a submarine or something.

Your right, my bad, I'm only taking things that Diana has done in stories to prove she's a planet buster or around that level. I didn't acknowledge the fact that she needs to shake the planet EVERY TIME she fights to prove that point.

I didn't, like, for example, create a thread specifically to show off her powers and where she stands or anything..... oh wait....

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...RESPECT-Thread

[Perseus]

On another note, were else am I suppose to gauge Cheetah's strength? Her appearances outside of Diana's books, baring some JL issues, are horrendous. Both in writing and action.

[Alpha]

This is what happens when Superman and Doomsday fight.



Compare that to Cheetah's fight with Diana in Savage Moon. I reallly like Priscilla Rich. I enjoyed the Rucka stories with Cheetah in rebirth (Barbara Minnerva not so much). But don't pretend that Cheetah has ever been a powerhouse. She has thrown around Wonder Woman, which is also true of many other characters.

[Alpha]

Your right, my bad, I'm only taking things that Diana has done in stories to prove she's a planet buster or around that level. I didn't acknowledge the fact that she needs to shake the planet EVERY TIME she fights to prove that point.

I didn't, like, for example, create a thread specifically to show off her powers and where she stands or anything..... oh wait....

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...RESPECT-Thread

I'm not asking if Wonder Woman has at some point lifted something equal or much heavier than a submarine (which I obviously know she has), I'm saying that there's absolutely no reason to claim that Cheetah is particularly strong just because she threw around Diana. Many other villains have done the same thing and it never meant that they were massively strong.

[Alpha]

Diana's fight vs Shim'tar just a couple issues later is much more powerful than Cheetah in Savage Moon

[Rightoya]

Good pull, that would definitely highlight her speed well. Anyone who wants to say Quicksilver's scenes are specifically Flash scenes don't realize how stupid fast Flash is portrayed as being, so I don't want to hear that criticism.

I take the guess you quoted the wrong reply? Because that sounds a lot like an answer to my reply

You could've also used Faora's scenes against the US Army, too.



I love the idea of the Faora fight, but if it's lacking in any way, it's the way she rag dolls the troops in that weightless, CGI way. Not saying this idea should not be considered, but it should be built upon in a way to give Cheetah (or the next super speedster) a distinctive-looking action sequence.

Well i think the Quicksilver scenes are better, and 1 part of the reason for that is what you mention, it looks awkward how Faora interacts with the soldiers and a bit like an older videogame without a good physics engine.

My point is, what makes you say that Wonder Woman was at a powerful level when she was fighting Cheetah?

If you base Cheetah's strength on the fact that she sometimes throws Diana around, even though Diana herself has often not been the "planetary level" you think she should be, you really have no reason to say that Cheetah oughta be any stronger than she was in WW84. Because by all accounts, every time Diana fought Cheetah, she could just as well be a street level character, unless we actually see proof that Diana at that point can lift a submarine or something.

This is what happens when Superman and Doomsday fight.



Compare that to Cheetah's fight with Diana in Savage Moon. I reallly like Priscilla Rich. I enjoyed the Rucka stories with Cheetah in rebirth (Barbara Minnerva not so much). But don't pretend that Cheetah has ever been a powerhouse. She has thrown around Wonder Woman, which is also true of many other characters.

I'm not asking if Wonder Woman has at some point lifted something equal or much heavier than a submarine (which I obviously know she has), I'm saying that there's absolutely no reason to claim that Cheetah is particularly strong just because she threw around Diana. Many other villains have done the same thing and it never meant that they were massively strong.

So Cheetah should be at best a minor villain, and never be a physical threat to Wonder Woman, is that your point?

[I'm a Fish]

There was one-time Clayface disguised himself as Cheetah and was tossing semi’s around and no one though that was weird.

[WonderLight789]

If you wanna just complain about her being beat up by Catwoman then fine, I agree.

But I'm pretty sure that you pointed at WW84 as an example of Cheetah being weak, which is the part I find totally ridiculous, because Cheetah has never been shown as stronger than she was in WW84. Faster? Sure, she has been faster. But not stronger.

And I think the argument that Cheetah is super strong just because she can throw around Diana, is invalid. You yourself have admitted that Diana's strength is volatile, so why would Cheetah be any more consistent?

So you are ok with WW being portrayed as weak and inconsistent in terms of power? Consistency is important. So i ask for Cheetah what i ask for WW. Consistency. WW is supposed to be very powerful. So i will not accept to see the type of performances i have seen from her in the past years. Where she performs as just the level of a regular super human. WW84 showed a Cheetah that did not show any great power. And that Cheetah was supposed to be stronger than Diana according t jenkins. So yeas, i have a problem with writers not putting their money where their mouth is and not being consistent.