Why many writers fail to write Cheetah be writen as a powerhouse?

[DABellWrites]

I didn't love it because while it did give Cheetah something more interesting going on, making her so sympathetic also somewhat removed her ability to remain Diana's arch enemy. If they positioned someone else to take that slot in Diana's rogues gallery, sure, but nobody truly stepped up and now we're back to heel Cheetah. Believe me, I get it. My favorite Batman villain is Two-Face who Bruce generally looks at as his great failure for similar reasons Diana does Cheetah. It's relatively similar in that respect.

But you can do that with Two Face because he's not quite The Joker or Lex Luthor. Cheetah, for good or ill, is Diana's counterpart to that equation even if Circe is the better fit.

It's like reforming Lex. Makes for an interesting story in the short term but ultimately takes away a pretty monumental chess piece.

So I was pretty opposed to the whole thing and likely why I don't think Rebirth was particularly kind to Cheetah. It kind of put her into this holding pattern where she would never really get to shine as Diana's arch enemy the way we're hoping she does because at the end of the day, Diana needs to put her arms around Cheetah and bring her back into the fold. Compelling? Sure. Interesting? You bet.

But it just further puts Diana having that one unmistakable arch enemy on hold the same way SM/WW and BM/WW shipping puts Diana on hold for developing her own love interests to prop up the boys.

I'm genuinely curious about this, when it comes to women in comics; I don't see much emphasis on their love lives except for a handful. If Clark would be dead for years in main continuity, what other guys would Lois be able to used? There is that one guy Jeb I read during Death of Superman (he kinda disappeared after that one scene), the other guy during the New52. If Lois was to die, he has Lana, Lori, Diana (if she's single), Maxima, and many more. Dick Grayson has his fair share, but what about Starfire? I'm not saying the women don't have any, but it doesn't seem much as the men. Green Arrow has children, but what kids does Dinah have? Does she have any?

[DABellWrites]

Rucka admitted so himself that he views Cheetah as Diana's "Two-face".

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Anyway, I don't know why Diana's relationship with her arch-enemies, whether it be Cheetah, Circe, Veronica Cale, or Devastation, has to be the same as Batman's relationship with Joker or Superman with Lex.

And if we are going all in here, Marston himself never really intended for Diana to have an arch-enemy, not in the way arch-nemesis would eventually turn into anyway. But, it was clear from conception Cheetah was a favorite of his and H.G. Peter, since she shows up a lot in Wonder Woman comics and in several of Peter's unpublished stories, so it was clear they where trying to make her work whenever possible. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Marston's endgame to have Cheetah reform Von Gunther style, but done better since that reformation was kinda messy and Pricilla was more sympathetic from the get-go.

And Rebirth Barbara has a leg up on Pricilla in the sense that, she doesn't want to get better. Rucka ended her arc with Barbara being perfectly resigned to being a killer.

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And I guess to add to this thread, a long occurring problem with Cheetah is that many WW comic writers didn't or don't view Cheetah as Diana's arch. It's clear Perez didn't, Messner-Loebs didn't, Luke didn't, Jimenez didn't and even Rucka didn't. In fact, even Circe wasn't viewed as Diana's arch nemesis by many despite Perez spelling it out on the page.

Luke didn't think of Circe like that at all, stating in an podcast "Wonder Woman never had an arch nemesis like Superman/Lex or Batman/Joker." So he made Devastation, who faded into obscurity the moment Jimenez picked up the book. And Rucka, whom I'm sure was aware what Perez was trying to due with Circe, didn't, in either of his runs, write her as an arch-nemesis type character. So he created Cale, who he did much better the second time but was every bit the victim that Barbara was.

(I think Simone was the only writer to see Cheetah as Diana's arch during post-crisis. )

So if you want to know why there aren't really any stories dedicated to Cheetah the same way The Killing Joke is to Joker, or Lex Luthor: Man of Steel is to Lex, it's because, until recently, not many writers weren't really in Cheetah's corner in that regard. (And it's not like both Joker and Lex started out as the "polar opposite" or arch-enemies of Batman and Superman, other writers made them that way after the fact.)

But despite that, the reason no other character has come close to knocking Cheetah out of the top spot (except for Max Lord of all people as someone hilariously/tragically put it earlier in this thread) is because of Super-Friends, where she is undoubtedly Wonder Woman's arch-enemy, and the overwhelming amount of times she has appeared in other media outside of comics.

I think Marston, being a psychologist, loved the idea of a villain having a split personality. If you ever read the comic strip, he really put an emphasis on it there. Like, Priscilla not having any memory of her misdeeds at all.

[Psy-lock]

In that sense, it would make Cheetah a good Spider-man villain, but then they'd probably do something stupid and make her on par with Black Cat because felines.

As a Spider-Man villain she would've most likely been just another femme fatale instead of a serious threat. It's very rare for male heroes to go all out on female villains.

Now that I think about it, Post-Crisis Barbara would've made a great arch for Hawkman. Evil archeologist vs good archeologist, cat vs bird...It's a shame they've never interacted. Or her and Lion-Mane for that matter.

[Robanker]

Agreed with all of this. In particular regard to the last point, it's rough when on the one hand you're having WW fighting the god of war, and now you want normie audiences to see someone with cheetah powers be on a similar level. Maybe an avid comic book reader would know that Cheetah isn't just some mutant with human and cheetah-like abilities, but that's probably how a lot of the general audience would see it. In that sense, it would make Cheetah a good Spider-man villain, but then they'd probably do something stupid and make her on par with Black Cat because felines.



The movie was the pinnacle of plot armor. Harley literally could laugh like an idiot among the chaos and not get shot while Cheetah takes a sniper bullet to the head. Whenever I see commercials for the new Suicide Squad movie, I ask myself what exactly makes Harley qualified for this type of action. At least with the GD Batman, we get to see all the intense training he underwent for years. It's not believable, but at least they try to explain it away. We gotta stop treating crazy as a superpower.

After Dick Grayson, everyone fast tracked to their skill level. Now every person in Gotham is one arc away from being Bat Family capable because they were a soldier or petty thief or something.

The power creep is real. Harley's a participate to be sure but the buck started before her and certainly stops after.

[John Venus]

@I'm a Fish:

Good point on how Cheetah has endured as Diana's archenemy even though Diana's best writers thinking otherwise or trying to prop up other characters as Diana's arch.

I think part of it also has to do with Cheetah being featured on the Legion of Doom and the Injustice League. Basically, any time they go for a recognizable WW villain in any kind of villain ensemble setting, Cheetah is there by default.

The other reason is I think because Cheetah contrasts better with Diana better. You have WW in her warrior armor and lasso trying to tame a humanoid feral character. The imagery itself is striking and powerful especially the Perez rendition where the two face off under a full moon. Or images of both bloodied and brutalized but still going at each other. It hearkens back to the images of ancient Greek heroes facing off against powerful adversaries; Theseus and the Minotaur, Perseus and Medusa, Heracles and Hydra and Bellerophone and the Chimera. Then there is the contrast in personality; Cheetah is jealous and hateful whereas Diana is loving and kind. Diana is thoughtful and sweet, Cheetah is resentful and bitter. Diana got her powers as a gift, Cheetah either stole her power or in Pricilla's case, manifested them through her jealousy.

So even if writers think otherwise, Cheetah is forever Diana's archenemy.

[I'm a Fish]

I think Marston, being a psychologist, loved the idea of a villain having a split personality. If you ever read the comic strip, he really put an emphasis on it there. Like, Priscilla not having any memory of her misdeeds at all.

Oh, absolutely! Especially back then, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde was a pop culture sensation and everyone was in-love with that troupe. By the time of Pricilla's inception, there where already 12 Jekyll & Hyde movies! And Marston directly cites that as a reference for the character in the comic itself, IIRC.

I also think he used the movie Cat People (1942) as inspiration for Pricilla as well, which was a box office sensation at it's release garnering a whapping $4 million at the B.O!

It was about a woman who turned into a black leopard when she was either kissed by a man, or became jealous of another woman (sounds familiar, right ). Marston also misidentifies cheetahs as a kind of leopard, and I don't have any zoology books from the 40's but I wouldn't be surprised if cheetah's where misclassified as a kind of leopard (they look kind of same-y and no options for genetic testing so you just had to classify based off of looks.). One of it's main characters was also a phycologist, so I imagine he saw the movie just for that at the very least. Plus the release date of the film, November 1942, lines up with when he would have been writing an outline for Wonder Woman #6, since comics usually take between 6-12 months to finish.

He also basically came up with Pricilla's blueprint back in 1937, in a newspaper piece called Try Living. He was clearly very big on jealousy as a topic.

Fascinating stuff I say!

[I'm a Fish]

@I'm a Fish:

Good point on how Cheetah has endured as Diana's archenemy even though Diana's best writers thinking otherwise or trying to prop up other characters as Diana's arch.

I think part of it also has to do with Cheetah being featured on the Legion of Doom and the Injustice League. Basically, any time they go for a recognizable WW villain in any kind of villain ensemble setting, Cheetah is there by default.

The other reason is I think because Cheetah contrasts better with Diana better. You have WW in her warrior armor and lasso trying to tame a humanoid feral character. The imagery itself is striking and powerful especially the Perez rendition where the two face off under a full moon. Or images of both bloodied and brutalized but still going at each other. It hearkens back to the images of ancient Greek heroes facing off against powerful adversaries; Theseus and the Minotaur, Perseus and Medusa, Heracles and Hydra and Bellerophone and the Chimera. Then there is the contrast in personality; Cheetah is jealous and hateful whereas Diana is loving and kind. Diana is thoughtful and sweet, Cheetah is resentful and bitter. Diana got her powers as a gift, Cheetah either stole her power or in Pricilla's case, manifested them through her jealousy.

Cheetah is also cursed while Diana is blessed, a theme somewhat introduced by Perez but brought front and center in Rucka's runs.

So even if writers think otherwise, Cheetah is forever Diana's archenemy.

The only thing I could think of that would knock Cheetah off of her pedestal is Wonder Woman 3, if it will in fact have Circe as the main villain. I don't know what Patty's view is on Diana's arch-nemesis, but I do know Johns is 100% in Cheetah's corner in that regard. But, the fact WW84 went out of its way to make Barbara as much of an "evil Wonder Woman" as possible, makes me think Patty sees Cheetah as Diana's arch-nemesis as well.

Plus the 3rd movie is kind-of late to introduce the arch.

As a Spider-Man villain she would've most likely been just another femme fatale instead of a serious threat. It's very rare for male heroes to go all out on female villains.

Now that I think about it, Post-Crisis Barbara would've made a great arch for Hawkman. Evil archeologist vs good archeologist, cat vs bird...It's a shame they've never interacted. Or her and Lion-Mane for that matter.

Well, they did meat one time.

[Gaius]

@I'm a Fish:

Good point on how Cheetah has endured as Diana's archenemy even though Diana's best writers thinking otherwise or trying to prop up other characters as Diana's arch.

I think part of it also has to do with Cheetah being featured on the Legion of Doom and the Injustice League. Basically, any time they go for a recognizable WW villain in any kind of villain ensemble setting, Cheetah is there by default.

The other reason is I think because Cheetah contrasts better with Diana better. You have WW in her warrior armor and lasso trying to tame a humanoid feral character. The imagery itself is striking and powerful especially the Perez rendition where the two face off under a full moon. Or images of both bloodied and brutalized but still going at each other. It hearkens back to the images of ancient Greek heroes facing off against powerful adversaries; Theseus and the Minotaur, Perseus and Medusa, Heracles and Hydra and Bellerophone and the Chimera. Then there is the contrast in personality; Cheetah is jealous and hateful whereas Diana is loving and kind. Diana is thoughtful and sweet, Cheetah is resentful and bitter. Diana got her powers as a gift, Cheetah either stole her power or in Pricilla's case, manifested them through her jealousy.

So even if writers think otherwise, Cheetah is forever Diana's archenemy.

Yeah, I think Perez was definitely going for a "Greek hero battling a savage beast" imagery with Diana and Barbara in his run.

Marston even compared Priscilla to a Medusa in her first appearance IIRC.

[DABellWrites]

Oh, absolutely! Especially back then, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde was a pop culture sensation and everyone was in-love with that troupe. By the time of Pricilla's inception, there where already 12 Jekyll & Hyde movies! And Marston directly cites that as a reference for the character in the comic itself, IIRC.

I also think he used the movie Cat People (1942) as inspiration for Pricilla as well, which was a box office sensation at it's release garnering a whapping $4 million at the B.O!

It was about a woman who turned into a black leopard when she was either kissed by a man, or became jealous of another woman (sounds familiar, right ). Marston also misidentifies cheetahs as a kind of leopard, and I don't have any zoology books from the 40's but I wouldn't be surprised if cheetah's where misclassified as a kind of leopard (they look kind of same-y and no options for genetic testing so you just had to classify based off of looks.). One of it's main characters was also a phycologist, so I imagine he saw the movie just for that at the very least. Plus the release date of the film, November 1942, lines up with when he would have been writing an outline for Wonder Woman #6, since comics usually take between 6-12 months to finish.

He also basically came up with Pricilla's blueprint back in 1937, in a newspaper piece called Try Living. He was clearly very big on jealousy as a topic.

Fascinating stuff I say!

In the comic strip, Priscilla created a device that transformed people into their second personality. Sadly, I don't know how the story ended. The Dr. Jeklly and Mr.Hyde comment reminded me of that. I'm surprised Marston never did a Frankenstein-type story. That was right up his alley.

[WonderLight789]

Agreed with all of this. In particular regard to the last point, it's rough when on the one hand you're having WW fighting the god of war, and now you want normie audiences to see someone with cheetah powers be on a similar level. Maybe an avid comic book reader would know that Cheetah isn't just some mutant with human and cheetah-like abilities, but that's probably how a lot of the general audience would see it. In that sense, it would make Cheetah a good Spider-man villain, but then they'd probably do something stupid and make her on par with Black Cat because felines.



The movie was the pinnacle of plot armor. Harley literally could laugh like an idiot among the chaos and not get shot while Cheetah takes a sniper bullet to the head. Whenever I see commercials for the new Suicide Squad movie, I ask myself what exactly makes Harley qualified for this type of action. At least with the GD Batman, we get to see all the intense training he underwent for years. It's not believable, but at least they try to explain it away. We gotta stop treating crazy as a superpower.

This thread is not to discuss personality or Cheetah's place as a villain. It is to discuss the fact that DC and WB keep treating Cheetah like a garbage weaklink in most appearances. The thread is asking why this is th case. After decades Cheetah is still lacking the respect she should have as a powerhouse because many writers don't portray her as such. WW84 had the chance to introduce Cheetah and her powwers coming from a God like in the comics. But once again they portrayed her as garbage. So that is why this thread exist. To talk about why Cheetah is not treated as a proper powerhouse by many writers.

[WonderLight789]

That's what they did for Birds of Prey and people complained about the action in that movie.

Then hire people that can create proper action scenes for a powerhouse. And maybe get rid of patty jenkins too. She already did everything she could with WW in the first 1. Her output in WW84 proved she has no vision for WW as a powerhouse. geoff johns should leave too. He can't write WW in comics or movies.

[Alpha]

This thread is not to discuss personality or Cheetah's place as a villain. It is to discuss the fact that DC and WB keep treating Cheetah like a garbage weaklink in most appearances. The thread is asking why this is th case. After decades Cheetah is still lacking the respect she should have as a powerhouse because many writers don't portray her as such. WW84 had the chance to introduce Cheetah and her powwers coming from a God like in the comics. But once again they portrayed her as garbage. So that is why this thread exist. To talk about why Cheetah is not treated as a proper powerhouse by many writers.

I feel like Cheetah has rarely if ever been impressive to the scale you seem to want. The two fights people seem to point to the most are Savage Moon and Justice League 14 (new 52). Neither of which made her seem incredibly powerful. Her fight in Savage Moon had very little collateral damage even though you claim that Diana should be a "planetary" threat. What fights made you believe Cheetah should be this super oppressive force?

[WonderLight789]

I feel like Cheetah has rarely if ever been impressive to the scale you seem to want. The two fights people seem to point to the most are Savage Moon and Justice League 14 (new 52). Neither of which made her seem incredibly powerful. Her fight in Savage Moon had very little collateral damage even though you claim that Diana should be a "planetary" threat. What fights made you believe Cheetah should be this super oppressive force?

DC keeps saying Cheetah can go toe to toe with WW. If so then they need to show her power. Instead of allowing things like catwoman, batman, green arrow etc beating Cheetah. There is a huge difference between being able to take hits from WW and getting beat up by peak human stats characters.

[BiteTheBullet]

That's what they did for Birds of Prey and people complained about the action in that movie.

With respect to WW84, any action directed other than Patty Jenkins would have been better. If Birds of Prey was complained about, there is always someone out there that can do a tremendous job with action set pieces. Just not the crew who did WW84. If Patty Jenkins is the director, fire everyone else besides Gal and that would be a good start.

[I'm a Fish]

With respect to WW84, any action directed other than Patty Jenkins would have been better. If Birds of Prey was complained about, there is always someone out there that can do a tremendous job with action set pieces. Just not the crew who did WW84. If Patty Jenkins is the director, fire everyone else besides Gal and that would be a good start.

Did you like the action in the first movie?