Why many writers fail to write Cheetah be writen as a powerhouse?

[John Venus]

Rebirth Cheetah is a combination of all the previous Cheetahs (with the exception of the male one) and trying to synergize with the movie franchise. I too think Rucka went too far in making her a victim. Veronica Cale comes off as more Diana's arch enemy moreso than Cheetah. Also, I think his take on Cheetah takes a bite out of what should be Silver Swan's narrative; the unhappy and legitimately hurt women wanting power like Dianas but ends up cursed by it and blames Diana for it but the latter wants to help her anyway.

[I'm a Fish]

I didn't love it because while it did give Cheetah something more interesting going on, making her so sympathetic also somewhat removed her ability to remain Diana's arch enemy. If they positioned someone else to take that slot in Diana's rogues gallery, sure, but nobody truly stepped up and now we're back to heel Cheetah. Believe me, I get it. My favorite Batman villain is Two-Face who Bruce generally looks at as his great failure for similar reasons Diana does Cheetah. It's relatively similar in that respect.

But you can do that with Two Face because he's not quite The Joker or Lex Luthor. Cheetah, for good or ill, is Diana's counterpart to that equation even if Circe is the better fit.

It's like reforming Lex. Makes for an interesting story in the short term but ultimately takes away a pretty monumental chess piece.

So I was pretty opposed to the whole thing and likely why I don't think Rebirth was particularly kind to Cheetah. It kind of put her into this holding pattern where she would never really get to shine as Diana's arch enemy the way we're hoping she does because at the end of the day, Diana needs to put her arms around Cheetah and bring her back into the fold. Compelling? Sure. Interesting? You bet.

But it just further puts Diana having that one unmistakable arch enemy on hold the same way SM/WW and BM/WW shipping puts Diana on hold for developing her own love interests to prop up the boys.

Rucka admitted so himself that he views Cheetah as Diana's "Two-face".

-

Anyway, I don't know why Diana's relationship with her arch-enemies, whether it be Cheetah, Circe, Veronica Cale, or Devastation, has to be the same as Batman's relationship with Joker or Superman with Lex.

And if we are going all in here, Marston himself never really intended for Diana to have an arch-enemy, not in the way arch-nemesis would eventually turn into anyway. But, it was clear from conception Cheetah was a favorite of his and H.G. Peter, since she shows up a lot in Wonder Woman comics and in several of Peter's unpublished stories, so it was clear they where trying to make her work whenever possible. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Marston's endgame to have Cheetah reform Von Gunther style, but done better since that reformation was kinda messy and Pricilla was more sympathetic from the get-go.

And Rebirth Barbara has a leg up on Pricilla in the sense that, she doesn't want to get better. Rucka ended her arc with Barbara being perfectly resigned to being a killer.

-

And I guess to add to this thread, a long occurring problem with Cheetah is that many WW comic writers didn't or don't view Cheetah as Diana's arch. It's clear Perez didn't, Messner-Loebs didn't, Luke didn't, Jimenez didn't and even Rucka didn't. In fact, even Circe wasn't viewed as Diana's arch nemesis by many despite Perez spelling it out on the page.

Luke didn't think of Circe like that at all, stating in an podcast "Wonder Woman never had an arch nemesis like Superman/Lex or Batman/Joker." So he made Devastation, who faded into obscurity the moment Jimenez picked up the book. And Rucka, whom I'm sure was aware what Perez was trying to due with Circe, didn't, in either of his runs, write her as an arch-nemesis type character. So he created Cale, who he did much better the second time but was every bit the victim that Barbara was.

(I think Simone was the only writer to see Cheetah as Diana's arch during post-crisis. )

So if you want to know why there aren't really any stories dedicated to Cheetah the same way The Killing Joke is to Joker, or Lex Luthor: Man of Steel is to Lex, it's because, until recently, not many writers weren't really in Cheetah's corner in that regard. (And it's not like both Joker and Lex started out as the "polar opposite" or arch-enemies of Batman and Superman, other writers made them that way after the fact.)

But despite that, the reason no other character has come close to knocking Cheetah out of the top spot (except for Max Lord of all people as someone hilariously/tragically put it earlier in this thread) is because of Super-Friends, where she is undoubtedly Wonder Woman's arch-enemy, and the overwhelming amount of times she has appeared in other media outside of comics.

[Psy-lock]

I'd argue that the Rebirth run is what solidified Cheetah as an arch by giving her a personal feud with Diana. Post-Crisis Barbara came off as a more formidable villain (at least while Perez was writing her) compared to the current more sympathetic version, but Circe was clearly intended as the big bad by most writers.

[Nyssane]

I'd argue that the Rebirth run is what solidified Cheetah as an arch by giving her a personal feud with Diana. Post-Crisis Barbara came off as a more formidable villain (at least while Perez was writing her) compared to the current more sympathetic version, but Circe was clearly intended as the big bad by most writers.

I agree.

The Two-Face angle only works in terms of friend-becomes-enemy. Unlike Batman, however, a Two-Face type has a stronger connection to Wonder Woman, who strives to redeem her enemies far more than Batman ever has. A Two-Face archetype is perfect as Wonder Woman's archenemy because of the very nature of the character in a way that wouldn't work for Batman.

But also Rucka thought Veronica Cale was Diana's arch and that just ain't ever happening.

For me it will always be Cheetah as the archenemy, Circe as the big bad, and Ares as the intro villain.

[I'm a Fish]

I agree.

The Two-Face angle only works in terms of friend-becomes-enemy. Unlike Batman, however, a Two-Face type has a stronger connection to Wonder Woman, who strives to redeem her enemies far more than Batman ever has. A Two-Face archetype is perfect as Wonder Woman's archenemy because of the very nature of the character in a way that wouldn't work for Batman.

But also Rucka thought Veronica Cale was Diana's arch and that just ain't ever happening.

For me it will always be Cheetah as the archenemy, Circe as the big bad, and Ares as the intro villain.

I second this.

I'd argue that the Rebirth run is what solidified Cheetah as an arch by giving her a personal feud with Diana. Post-Crisis Barbara came off as a more formidable villain (at least while Perez was writing her) compared to the current more sympathetic version, but Circe was clearly intended as the big bad by most writers.

I can't help but find the terrible amount of irony that Rucka did the best job writing Barbara as an arch-enemy character (IMO) in his run than anyone prior, despite that not being his intent at all.

Of course this isn't to say Rucka doesn't think highly of Cheetah, I think it's obvious she is his favorite Marston original villain. And while I did like Cale in that run, there is no doubt Cheetah was the take-away villain, I remember all the articles and chatter about her new origin during that time.

[Gaius]

Rucka admitted so himself that he views Cheetah as Diana's "Two-face".

-

Anyway, I don't know why Diana's relationship with her arch-enemies, whether it be Cheetah, Circe, Veronica Cale, or Devastation, has to be the same as Batman's relationship with Joker or Superman with Lex.

And if we are going all in here, Marston himself never really intended for Diana to have an arch-enemy, not in the way arch-nemesis would eventually turn into anyway. But, it was clear from conception Cheetah was a favorite of his and H.G. Peter, since she shows up a lot in Wonder Woman comics and in several of Peter's unpublished stories, so it was clear they where trying to make her work whenever possible. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Marston's endgame to have Cheetah reform Von Gunther style, but done better since that reformation was kinda messy and Pricilla was more sympathetic from the get-go.

And Rebirth Barbara has a leg up on Pricilla in the sense that, she doesn't want to get better. Rucka ended her arc with Barbara being perfectly resigned to being a killer.

-

And I guess to add to this thread, a long occurring problem with Cheetah is that many WW comic writers didn't or don't view Cheetah as Diana's arch. It's clear Perez didn't, Messner-Loebs didn't, Luke didn't, Jimenez didn't and even Rucka didn't. In fact, even Circe wasn't viewed as Diana's arch nemesis by many despite Perez spelling it out on the page.

Luke didn't think of Circe like that at all, stating in an podcast "Wonder Woman never had an arch nemesis like Superman/Lex or Batman/Joker." So he made Devastation, who faded into obscurity the moment Jimenez picked up the book. And Rucka, whom I'm sure was aware what Perez was trying to due with Circe, didn't, in either of his runs, write her as an arch-nemesis type character. So he created Cale, who he did much better the second time but was every bit the victim that Barbara was.

(I think Simone was the only writer to see Cheetah as Diana's arch during post-crisis. )

So if you want to know why there aren't really any stories dedicated to Cheetah the same way The Killing Joke is to Joker, or Lex Luthor: Man of Steel is to Lex, it's because, until recently, not many writers weren't really in Cheetah's corner in that regard. (And it's not like both Joker and Lex started out as the "polar opposite" or arch-enemies of Batman and Superman, other writers made them that way after the fact.)

But despite that, the reason no other character has come close to knocking Cheetah out of the top spot (except for Max Lord of all people as someone hilariously/tragically put it earlier in this thread) is because of Super-Friends, where she is undoubtedly Wonder Woman's arch-enemy, and the overwhelming amount of times she has appeared in other media outside of comics.

What's funny about Perez positioning Circe as Diana's arch is that with WoG is he also clearly intended for that to be Circe's finale but, as with comics, she came back under the next writer.

[I'm a Fish]

What's funny about Perez positioning Circe as Diana's arch is that with WoG is he also clearly intended for that to be Circe's finale but, as with comics, she came back under the next writer.

Yeah, it was really more Messer-Loebs and Jimenez that retooled Circe as more of a long lasting "arch-enemy" type villain than Perez himself.

He kind-of just had her show up and scream to Diana/the readers "I'm you, but evil!" and then poof without a trace for 20 issues.

And it was pretty clear that Circe was being set-up to be destroyed in his run as well, since again, Circe yells at Diana/the reader, "If I live, than your world of peace will never come to pass and if you live, my world of sin will never come to pass." Soooo...IDK, maybe Perez just wasn't thinking about what to leave writers after he left, lol.

[Sebastianne]

What's funny about Perez positioning Circe as Diana's arch is that with WoG is he also clearly intended for that to be Circe's finale but, as with comics, she came back under the next writer.

Yeah, and if I remember correctly, in his run Messner never explained how Circe survived or came back to life again.

[Robanker]

Rucka admitted so himself that he views Cheetah as Diana's "Two-face".

-

Anyway, I don't know why Diana's relationship with her arch-enemies, whether it be Cheetah, Circe, Veronica Cale, or Devastation, has to be the same as Batman's relationship with Joker or Superman with Lex.

And if we are going all in here, Marston himself never really intended for Diana to have an arch-enemy, not in the way arch-nemesis would eventually turn into anyway. But, it was clear from conception Cheetah was a favorite of his and H.G. Peter, since she shows up a lot in Wonder Woman comics and in several of Peter's unpublished stories, so it was clear they where trying to make her work whenever possible. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Marston's endgame to have Cheetah reform Von Gunther style, but done better since that reformation was kinda messy and Pricilla was more sympathetic from the get-go.

And Rebirth Barbara has a leg up on Pricilla in the sense that, she doesn't want to get better. Rucka ended her arc with Barbara being perfectly resigned to being a killer.

-

And I guess to add to this thread, a long occurring problem with Cheetah is that many WW comic writers didn't or don't view Cheetah as Diana's arch. It's clear Perez didn't, Messner-Loebs didn't, Luke didn't, Jimenez didn't and even Rucka didn't. In fact, even Circe wasn't viewed as Diana's arch nemesis by many despite Perez spelling it out on the page.

Luke didn't think of Circe like that at all, stating in an podcast "Wonder Woman never had an arch nemesis like Superman/Lex or Batman/Joker." So he made Devastation, who faded into obscurity the moment Jimenez picked up the book. And Rucka, whom I'm sure was aware what Perez was trying to due with Circe, didn't, in either of his runs, write her as an arch-nemesis type character. So he created Cale, who he did much better the second time but was every bit the victim that Barbara was.

(I think Simone was the only writer to see Cheetah as Diana's arch during post-crisis. )

So if you want to know why there aren't really any stories dedicated to Cheetah the same way The Killing Joke is to Joker, or Lex Luthor: Man of Steel is to Lex, it's because, until recently, not many writers weren't really in Cheetah's corner in that regard. (And it's not like both Joker and Lex started out as the "polar opposite" or arch-enemies of Batman and Superman, other writers made them that way after the fact.)

But despite that, the reason no other character has come close to knocking Cheetah out of the top spot (except for Max Lord of all people as someone hilariously/tragically put it earlier in this thread) is because of Super-Friends, where she is undoubtedly Wonder Woman's arch-enemy, and the overwhelming amount of times she has appeared in other media outside of comics.

Oh, I don't want her to have the same relationship to her villain but I do think that taking away her ability to truly hate the protagonist and needing to be redeemable is too limiting for an arch.

I agree Circe is the biggest bad, but that's the thing. Circe is the big threat. Cheetah is the one who challenges Diana's themes hardest.

Truth. Compassion. Peace. These are themes that Cheetah needs to challenge, not really embrace. For her to successfully be Diana's arch enemy, she needs to be the one who lives almost to refute Diana as a narrative construct because otherwise she's just, well, Two Face. A very interesting character that shows a facet to the hero, but not one that taxes them to the core and serves to test their thesis.

Rebirth made Barbara more interesting, but it neutered her as an arch enemy and made her squarely just another rogue.

Like Clark trying to redeem Lex, that only seems to work if it's the last thing Clark does before he dies. It's an end goal, and that should hold true to Cheetah because having her be tortured and going over the edge is going to make Diana complicit in her crimes if she keeps forgiving her.

So Cheetah can only go so far to preserve Diana's integrity as a hero if they're going to remain friends. I get the appeal of the fringe case that any but Diana would give up on, but I just don't think it's viable for an arch enemy.

Rucka is a great writer but his rogue plan was basically shift her arch enemy into Two Face and make her new arch enemy Lex Luthor. Not his best ideas in my mind.

[BiteTheBullet]

The reason (probably stated before) that others might consider Cheetah not a powerhouse is simply the Batman writers!

If Catwoman can take her on and Batman one shots her, the disrespect is there no matter the retcon.

What about her ignominious death in Justice League Dark: Apokolips war? The disrespect is there and I am not sure there is much they can do about it. Her presence in the WW84 movie didn't help her out either. To many, she was just another Cats reject as well as one of the most underwhelming boss fights a movie has had!

I am trying to find ways that she shines being a Wonder Woman fan, but I can't. Freaking Batman!!!!

[Perseus]

The reason (probably stated before) that others might consider Cheetah not a powerhouse is simply the Batman writers!

If Catwoman can take her on and Batman one shots her, the disrespect is there no matter the retcon.

What about her ignominious death in Justice League Dark: Apokolips war? The disrespect is there and I am not sure there is much they can do about it. Her presence in the WW84 movie didn't help her out either. To many, she was just another Cats reject as well as one of the most underwhelming boss fights a movie has had!

I am trying to find ways that she shines being a Wonder Woman fan, but I can't. Freaking Batman!!!!

I remember the reasoning for that "Boss fight" was that Gal, Patty, and the stunt choreographer all went to see a circus show and when the rope dancers came on they were entranced. So, and I don't remember, if it was Gal or Patty who said that should be the Cheetah fight. And went with it.

[BiteTheBullet]

I remember the reasoning for that "Boss fight" was that Gal, Patty, and the stunt choreographer all went to see a circus show and when the rope dancers came on they were entranced. So, and I don't remember, if it was Gal or Patty who said that should be the Cheetah fight. And went with it.

And we want to give the reigns again to Patty for the third WW movie? If she can just direct instead of write, then maybe. And if they can get actual people that know action and can deliver good choreography for this. Just grab the John Wick director or stunt people as the action director part for the movie.

[I'm a Fish]

And we want to give the reigns again to Patty for the third WW movie? If she can just direct instead of write, then maybe. And if they can get actual people that know action and can deliver good choreography for this. Just grab the John Wick director or stunt people as the action director part for the movie.

That's what they did for Birds of Prey and people complained about the action in that movie.

[DochaDocha]

In no particular order:

- sexism
- lack of knowledge about the character
- bad influence of her poor showings in the more mainstream stuff (DCAU)
- cheetahs aren't seen as particularly threatening animals

Agreed with all of this. In particular regard to the last point, it's rough when on the one hand you're having WW fighting the god of war, and now you want normie audiences to see someone with cheetah powers be on a similar level. Maybe an avid comic book reader would know that Cheetah isn't just some mutant with human and cheetah-like abilities, but that's probably how a lot of the general audience would see it. In that sense, it would make Cheetah a good Spider-man villain, but then they'd probably do something stupid and make her on par with Black Cat because felines.

What about her ignominious death in Justice League Dark: Apokolips war?

The movie was the pinnacle of plot armor. Harley literally could laugh like an idiot among the chaos and not get shot while Cheetah takes a sniper bullet to the head. Whenever I see commercials for the new Suicide Squad movie, I ask myself what exactly makes Harley qualified for this type of action. At least with the GD Batman, we get to see all the intense training he underwent for years. It's not believable, but at least they try to explain it away. We gotta stop treating crazy as a superpower.

[I'm a Fish]

Agreed with all of this. In particular regard to the last point, it's rough when on the one hand you're having WW fighting the god of war, and now you want normie audiences to see someone with cheetah powers be on a similar level. Maybe an avid comic book reader would know that Cheetah isn't just some mutant with human and cheetah-like abilities, but that's probably how a lot of the general audience would see it. In that sense, it would make Cheetah a good Spider-man villain, but then they'd probably do something stupid and make her on par with Black Cat because felines.

Marvel doesn't even make Tigra in Spider-Man's weight class, and she's a tiger.

But Marvel also goes way further with Tigra and the cat puns...