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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    If it's caused by a mutation, it's genetic; if it's genetic, it can be inherited.
    It's more complicated, in the case of telepathy, 'cause it can also be *learned* by non-mutants who go through magical training, like Dr. Strange, Dr. Druid, Baron Mordo, Enchantress, etc. (it was one of the 'trained' abilities back in the Marvel Handbook days), and be taught by aliens, as in the case of Mantis, Moondragon and the Uranian Bob, from Agents of Atlas.

    And there was the weird bit where Jean was a telekinetic, until Professor Xavier somehow taught her telepathy (as well as giving Changeling telepathy so that he could impersonate Xavier temporarily while he secretly faced off aliens or whatever), although that first bit has been retconned into her always having been telepathic. (But Xavier 'teaching' Changeling telepathy remains canon, AFAIK.)

    The non-mutant Kwannon somehow learning telepathy as a side-effect of being possessed by the telepathic Betsy is another odd example, and suggests that Storm or Iceman could someday develop telepathy because they have been possessed by Emma in the past!

    In short, goodness. It's a mess. Kind of a relief that Colossus can't just sort of 'teach' people (even non-mutants!) to armor up, or Kitty can't 'teach' people to walk through walls!

  2. #167
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    Yes--because virtually everyone has inherited all the genetic mutations that made speaking, reading and writing possible.
    Even if/given that that's true, that doesn't address my first point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    If the first speakers had been treated like today's MXU mutants, we might all be speechless today. Also, fear of telepaths doesn't explain the fear of other mutants' powers; why hate someone who can turn to ice or grow fur?
    I just don't think there's any way to equate telepathy with speech - sound is used for communication across the animal kingdom, telepathy is an invasive, usually one-sided interaction.

    I'm sorry, I'm not sure what fear of other mutants has to do with this particular topic? I might have missed your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    If it's caused by a mutation, it's genetic; if it's genetic, it can be inherited.

    I once read a sci-fi story in which the human propensity for war and violence was attributed to the fact that we, alone among the sapient species of the universe, were not telepathic. Members of other species could feel pain if they inflicted it on others, so they'd evolved an aversion to causing pain. Humans hadn't learned that lesson.
    That sounds deep, except that we have empathy and can understand the pain we cause others. We don't need telepathy for that capacity.
    Does it need doing?
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  3. #168
    Incredible Member Bunch of Coconuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    That sounds deep, except that we have empathy and can understand the pain we cause others. We don't need telepathy for that capacity.
    Funnily enough, one of the common ways to communicate experiencing pain is…speech.

  4. #169
    Incredible Member Bunch of Coconuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    If it's caused by a mutation, it's genetic; if it's genetic, it can be inherited.

    I once read a sci-fi story in which the human propensity for war and violence was attributed to the fact that we, alone among the sapient species of the universe, were not telepathic. Members of other species could feel pain if they inflicted it on others, so they'd evolved an aversion to causing pain. Humans hadn't learned that lesson.
    The X-Gene is genetic, but the expression of the gene is rather “chaotic”. There’s an unlimited expression of powers and physical mutations.

    To note as well:

    1. There is evidence that two mutants breeding can create a baseline (Grayson Creed).
    2. There is no evidence that two mutants with the same power set creates offspring with the same powers.
    3. …but there is precedent that two mutants with different powers create an offspring with an amalgam of the parents’ powers.

    Side-note: Steve Orlando recently did a Martian Manhunter limited series that explored a culture where telepathy is a “norm”, and even then still explored that sometimes “people” (in this case, Martians) don’t always want to share everything, even with their mates.
    Last edited by Bunch of Coconuts; 07-20-2021 at 09:50 PM.

  5. #170
    Incredible Member Anodyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    The X-Gene is genetic, but the expression of the gene is rather “chaotic”. There’s an unlimited expression of powers and physical mutations.
    Which I very much doubt could happen in real life. Some different expressions, maybe, but not to the extent that it happens in the MXU
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    1. There is evidence that two mutants breeding can create a baseline (Grayson Creed).
    2. There is no evidence that two mutants with the same power seU.Xt creates offspring with the same powers.
    3. …but there is precedent that two mutants with different powers create an offspring with an amalgam of the parents’ powers.
    Isn't that how evolution happens in real life? By one's new genes getting passed on to one's offspring? Of course, it also matters whether a gene is dominant or recessive; and which half of of each parent's genes one inherits. BTW, a child of mutant parents who inherits no new mutations of his of her own is not a mutant. Only the first person to have a mutated gene is a mutant. For future generations, the genes are inherited (or not; remember, you get half of each parent's genes.) That's why Grayson (Graydon?) Creed is a baseline human: he got the nonmutant ones.
    Beverly Allen, the Bee--with honey and stinger.

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  6. #171
    Incredible Member Bunch of Coconuts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anodyne View Post
    Which I very much doubt could happen in real life. Some different expressions, maybe, but not to the extent that it happens in the MXU


    Isn't that how evolution happens in real life? By one's new genes getting passed on to one's offspring? Of course, it also matters whether a gene is dominant or recessive; and which half of of each parent's genes one inherits. BTW, a child of mutant parents who inherits no new mutations of his of her own is not a mutant. Only the first person to have a mutated gene is a mutant. For future generations, the genes are inherited (or not; remember, you get half of each parent's genes.) That's why Grayson (Graydon?) Creed is a baseline human: he got the nonmutant ones.
    It’s important to note that not very many Marvel writers are genetic scientists.

    IE “this shit don’t make sense”.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    It’s important to note that not very many Marvel writers are genetic scientists.

    IE “this shit don’t make sense”.
    This times a million.

  8. #173

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    Probably negatively. Both options feel good to be true and humanity has the worse track record.

  9. #174
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    Funnily enough, one of the common ways to communicate experiencing pain is…speech.
    Exactly, and there's nothing invasive about it, there's no imbalance.
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  10. #175
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunch of Coconuts View Post
    It’s important to note that not very many Marvel writers are genetic scientists.

    IE “this shit don’t make sense”.
    We should also be careful in applying too much realism to superhero comics; are we supposed to believe that a difference in DNA means one mutant can manipulate space-time and another... can grow an extra pair of arms?
    Does it need doing?
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    Then it will be done.

  11. #176
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    We should also be careful in applying too much realism to superhero comics; are we supposed to believe that a difference in DNA means one mutant can manipulate space-time and another... can grow an extra pair of arms?
    True, genes are a much more complex thing than the popular culture thinks. I’m not a specialist neither but I heard glimpses of its complexity. There are genes and gene expression, the influence of the environment…
    Well, it’s funny that people ponder logically on a material that is not realistic at all… The reality in fiction is just what the author says it is.

    But there’s still one thing on which we can rely: the truth of the feelings expressed by the characters. Considering what we know of him/her, is the character behaving in a logical way or not? I can only “believe” in a comic if the characters are “believable”…

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    We should also be careful in applying too much realism to superhero comics; are we supposed to believe that a difference in DNA means one mutant can manipulate space-time and another... can grow an extra pair of arms?
    With the notion that the X-gene was placed into humanity by the Celestials, who also created the Eternals and Deviants, I wondered back in the day if the ultimate 'endgame' of mutant evolution was to allow mutants to adopt the various traits of both Eternals *and* Deviants and synthesize them into something new and grander than either.

    Various mutants like Apocalyse and Exodus and Legion seemed to be just a few steps away from having all or most of the powers of a full Eternal anyway, which made it almost seem like at least *some* human mutants had the potential to kinda/sorta 'become' Eternals, or, Eternal-esque.

    But there's never really been any consistency, and I don't think Marvel has had an editor-in-chief who gave a crap about that sort of over-arching binding narrative structural consistency thing since Jim Shooter anyway.

  13. #178
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    True, genes are a much more complex thing than the popular culture thinks. I’m not a specialist neither but I heard glimpses of its complexity. There are genes and gene expression, the influence of the environment…
    Well, it’s funny that people ponder logically on a material that is not realistic at all… The reality in fiction is just what the author says it is.

    But there’s still one thing on which we can rely: the truth of the feelings expressed by the characters. Considering what we know of him/her, is the character behaving in a logical way or not? I can only “believe” in a comic if the characters are “believable”…
    Yeah, you've got it; I can suspend my disbelief about how powers work if the story and characters are good.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  14. #179
    Extraordinary Member Hizashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    With the notion that the X-gene was placed into humanity by the Celestials, who also created the Eternals and Deviants, I wondered back in the day if the ultimate 'endgame' of mutant evolution was to allow mutants to adopt the various traits of both Eternals *and* Deviants and synthesize them into something new and grander than either.

    Various mutants like Apocalyse and Exodus and Legion seemed to be just a few steps away from having all or most of the powers of a full Eternal anyway, which made it almost seem like at least *some* human mutants had the potential to kinda/sorta 'become' Eternals, or, Eternal-esque.

    But there's never really been any consistency, and I don't think Marvel has had an editor-in-chief who gave a crap about that sort of over-arching binding narrative structural consistency thing since Jim Shooter anyway.
    Stronger narrative connection would go a long way to improving the entire line, in my opinion. I don't need everything referenced but there should be more thought put into certain things.
    Does it need doing?
    Yes.
    Then it will be done.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hizashi View Post
    Stronger narrative connection would go a long way to improving the entire line, in my opinion. I don't need everything referenced but there should be more thought put into certain things.
    Yeah, I don't need to understand what's going on under the hood, but I do sometimes wish it wasn't so terribly obvious that the writers have no freaking idea and generally just make stuff up as they go along and never bother to read any of the previous writers work on the characters they are currently writing.

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