Why did DC back track from naming Tim and Cass, Red Robin and Blackbat?

[Will Evans]

Just curious?

[Jackalope89]

Both predate Tim and Cass by a considerable amount. The first one is more because people don't like Tim having the name of a restaurant. The latter is due to copyright.

[dietrich]

Just curious?

Because fans complained and fans of nostalgia won't let them move past the ids they held on the 90's [Robin and Batgirl]

Black Bat might also have been copyrighted

I wonder how those that protested those names feel about Tim and Cass' name situation at the moment?

[MajorHoy]

Both predate Tim and Cass by a considerable amount. The first one is more because people don't like Tim having the name of a restaurant. The latter is due to copyright.

And prior to that,

[Godlike13]

Because they were obviously doa and lacked any sort of launching pad.

[charliehustle415]

Both predate Tim and Cass by a considerable amount. The first one is more because people don't like Tim having the name of a restaurant. The latter is due to copyright.

Dang I never made this connection, thanks for the info!

On another note I adore the Red Robin solo series and on another another note I love Red Robin unlimited french fries

[CPSparkles]

Both predate Tim and Cass by a considerable amount. The first one is more because people don't like Tim having the name of a restaurant. The latter is due to copyright.

Red Robin restaurant has nothing to do with why DC back tracked on the name since they still use the name red Robin not just for Tim but they also used it for Jason in DITF movie.

Bendis changed Rim's name from Rr to Robin and then to Drake. It wasn't because of the restaurant.

[witchboy]

Red Robin is a much better name than Drake.

[Blight]

Because, Red Robin identity was ruined due to the New 52. By taking away Tim's Robin past and always making him Red Robin, it denied Tim the evolution that the identity became. That's why Tim is stuck in this state of not knowing who he is currently. Because the memories of his past life as a Robin are in his head, and he feels the identity was taken from him. He tried to move past it as Drake, but-- let's face it But, that whole identity was the one that ticked off fans that caused DC to backtrack.

For Cassandra, it isn't because of the pulp Black Bat character. She was called Black Bat in DC Bombshells a few years back. The reason is two-fold. #1 some heads at DC didn't want a bat symbol around her hence the Orphan identity or evolving the character further from Babs (who was devolved back into Batgirl from her evolved Oracle state). It would mean Cass would have more progression than Babs, and that's a thing DC cannot have. So we're at these cycles for both characters going backward. For Cass at least, becoming Batgirl again is progressive, and could eventually lead her into becoming Black Bat again. Could-- but it's probably doubtful given Future State has both as Robin and Batgirl still in the future.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Because, Red Robin identity was ruined due to the New 52. By taking away Tim's Robin past and always making him Red Robin, it denied Tim the evolution that the identity became. That's why Tim is stuck in this state of not knowing who he is currently. Because the memories of his past life as a Robin are in his head, and he feels the identity was taken from him. He tried to move past it as Drake, but-- let's face it But, that whole identity was the one that ticked off fans that caused DC to backtrack.

For Cassandra, it isn't because of the pulp Black Bat character. She was called Black Bat in DC Bombshells a few years back. The reason is two-fold. #1 some heads at DC didn't want a bat symbol around her hence the Orphan identity or evolving the character further from Babs (who was devolved back into Batgirl from her evolved Oracle state). It would mean Cass would have more progression than Babs, and that's a thing DC cannot have. So we're at these cycles for both characters going backward. For Cass at least, becoming Batgirl again is progressive, and could eventually lead her into becoming Black Bat again. Could-- but it's probably doubtful given Future State has both as Robin and Batgirl still in the future.

I have to disagree on parts of this.

DC is owned by Time Warner, and they would never back characters to whom they didn't own the copyrights 100%. So that likely did influence the decision to rename.

Why Cass didn't get a better alternate name, well...

[Aahz]

For Cassandra, it isn't because of the pulp Black Bat character. She was called Black Bat in DC Bombshells a few years back.

I'm not sure if that really proofs much. The Copy right does afaik not mean that the character can't be called like that in a comic, but it means from my understanding that you can't put the name of the character in the title of the book or sell merchandise with the name on it.

Marvel has for example the rights to "Captain Marvel", but Billy Batson was still called "Captain Marvel" in the comics up untill flashpoint, just his comics had to allways be names something with "Shazam" and that's why they finally changed his name to Shazam with the reboot.

The rights to "Bumble Bee" has iirc Hasbro, but DC is still using that name for a character in the comics, and I think also in cartoons. But they got sued by Hasbro when they put an action figure out with that name.

[witchboy]

Because, Red Robin identity was ruined due to the New 52. By taking away Tim's Robin past and always making him Red Robin, it denied Tim the evolution that the identity became. That's why Tim is stuck in this state of not knowing who he is currently. Because the memories of his past life as a Robin are in his head, and he feels the identity was taken from him. He tried to move past it as Drake, but-- let's face it But, that whole identity was the one that ticked off fans that caused DC to backtrack.

For Cassandra, it isn't because of the pulp Black Bat character. She was called Black Bat in DC Bombshells a few years back. The reason is two-fold. #1 some heads at DC didn't want a bat symbol around her hence the Orphan identity or evolving the character further from Babs (who was devolved back into Batgirl from her evolved Oracle state). It would mean Cass would have more progression than Babs, and that's a thing DC cannot have. So we're at these cycles for both characters going backward. For Cass at least, becoming Batgirl again is progressive, and could eventually lead her into becoming Black Bat again. Could-- but it's probably doubtful given Future State has both as Robin and Batgirl still in the future.

Red Robin is an acceptable code name if Tim can't be Robin - I'd prefer he be Robin. That they said he was never Robin was asinine and a terrible choice.

[CPSparkles]

Because, Red Robin identity was ruined due to the New 52. By taking away Tim's Robin past and always making him Red Robin, it denied Tim the evolution that the identity became. That's why Tim is stuck in this state of not knowing who he is currently. Because the memories of his past life as a Robin are in his head, and he feels the identity was taken from him. He tried to move past it as Drake, but-- let's face it But, that whole identity was the one that ticked off fans that caused DC to backtrack.

For Cassandra, it isn't because of the pulp Black Bat character. She was called Black Bat in DC Bombshells a few years back. The reason is two-fold. #1 some heads at DC didn't want a bat symbol around her hence the Orphan identity or evolving the character further from Babs (who was devolved back into Batgirl from her evolved Oracle state). It would mean Cass would have more progression than Babs, and that's a thing DC cannot have. So we're at these cycles for both characters going backward. For Cass at least, becoming Batgirl again is progressive, and could eventually lead her into becoming Black Bat again. Could-- but it's probably doubtful given Future State has both as Robin and Batgirl still in the future.

New 52 didn't ruin Red Robin since that red Robin wasn't Tim Drake just a WP kid using the name.

That's like saying the new 52 ruined Superboy, Wonder girl or Impulse. The new 52 versions of those characters were worse than Red Robin.

I feel Tim is back as robin has more to do with fans and fanboy writers wanting him to be Robin. Tynion who used to have 2 Tim focused blogs has said that he has been for years now always bringing up Tim as Robin to the annoyance of many behind the scenes.

[Blight]

New 52 didn't ruin Red Robin since that red Robin wasn't Tim Drake just a WP kid using the name.

That's like saying the new 52 ruined Superboy, Wonder girl or Impulse. The new 52 versions of those characters were worse than Red Robin.

I feel Tim is back as robin has more to do with fans and fanboy writers wanting him to be Robin. Tynion who used to have 2 Tim focused blogs has said that he has been for years now always bringing up Tim as Robin to the annoyance of many behind the scenes.

But they did. Why else do you think DC kind dumped the entire run of the New 52 Teen Titans? The only survivor of that entire run was Bunker. They've all but ignored those versions of Superboy, Impulse, and Wonder Girl. They even killed off Solstice. It's safe to say the New 52 Teen Titans tainted every single character save Bunker, the only character that was good in that run and they kept him around. Everyone else? They've all but ignored and buried that run.

[godisawesome]

Yeah, the New 52 Teen Titans set back most of its cast (save Bunker, it’s only successful original contribution) hard enough that pretty much it’s entirety has been retconned away without any fuss.

The big problem both IDs had *was the New 52.*

Tim lost a solo book, his past and different profile and aesthetic as Red Robin. Cass was exiled to limbo again for multiple years.

What momentum the new IDs *DID* have was squandered and neutered by the New 52; Red Robin really wasn’t a problem for Tim until Lobdell got done destroying its value for him, and in hindsight, Black Bat feels like a last hurrah from creator Cass fans before Didio slammed the door shut on her again.