Is the Marvel Age Of Movies Done?

[green_garnish]

Saving Private Ryan isn't the gold standard of anything. Spielberg didn't push the genre at all, at least not in a positive way.

Realism has nothing to do with a film's quality, let alone if it qualifies as a masterpiece, so bringing up opinions of war veterans says nothing about its merit for the art. If you want realism watch documentaries.

Films like Come and See or Apocalypse Now aren't concerned with being a realistic portrayal of war but they are far better films than Spielberg's trivialized take on a war movie. Believing that Saving Private Ryan was the first movie that showed the horrors of war in an explicit way just shows one's lack of knowledge about the matter.

Oh, and did you know that Christopher Nolan made a war movie that has a PG-13 rating?

M*A*S*H the TV show did a much better job of portraying the horrors of war than any R rated war film ever made, and kept a G rating.

[thwhtGuardian]

M*A*S*H the TV show did a much better job of portraying the horrors of war than any R rated war film ever made, and kept a G rating.

That's certainly what I'd point to.

But then again, I've never understood the whole R is for serious films angle, so what do I know?

[Kirby101]

That's certainly what I'd point to.

But then again, I've never understood the whole R is for serious films angle, so what do I know?

No one does, it is just a cudgel that one poster uses to bash the MCU. It's not a legitimate argument.

It's like saying Pinocchio or Fantasy are good, but we can't take them as seriously as Fritz the Cat.

[phonogram12]

Excusing wanting to see specific characters and stories and tones brought to life, I've noticed a recurring idea in the "we need more R-rated comic book movies" is this conception that anything less is just kiddie stuff and not mature storytelling for adults.

Exactly. Whenever I hear/read anyone accuse a superhero movie as being "kiddie" while at the same time bemoaning why can't there be more "mature" superhero movies, that's a clear indicator that "mature" is not what they're looking for at all. What they really want is what an 11-14-year-old boy would consider "mature," which 9/10 is really anything but.

I think there is a place for the R-rated ones, but this idea that they're inherently mature is a pretty basic misunderstanding of how storytelling works and what "mature" actually means. Heck, as we've seen, there's literally a PG-rated Batman cartoon show and movie that more mature than anything in the R-rated Snyderverse.

Yep.

But yeah, just make good movies; the rating is only to help audiences navigate the content, not be a benchmark of quality.

Nail on head.

[Vakanai]

The descriptions I used for THE ROOM are all accurate and meet the definition by some of what constitutes a quality movie.

I personally enjoyed watching THE ROOM, specifically watching the Rifftrax Live version.

I don't care for Rifftrax or MST3K. If a movie isn't interesting to watch as intended, it's not interesting to watch people mocking it either. But to each their own.

[Castle]

Objectively MASH did not do a better job showing the horrors of war than any r rated war film. this is the reason, no can point to any video evidence of MASH that was as gripping as the rawness of war as saving of private ryan because that clip factually does not exist in any Mash episode and this is because CBS TV primetime cannot show anything that gripping. they cant even do it now in 2021 and even HBO may still guess twice.

Honestly, this discussion is opening a bigger commentary of what Martin Scorsese once said that went quite ignored because people focused too much and blew out of proportions his claim that Marvel movies are not cinema, However he also made another comment I feel now would have been better listened too when he said, part of the problem is that the marvel movies are not really seriously educating people about cinema and when I read some comments here with some people try to discredit private ryan just to defend movies, Marvel don't even take seriously enough to let their own directors really direct them so completely as Spielberg did with Saving Private Ryan and not mention importantly how any themes of subject in MCU films cannot be dealt with enough that it takes more importance beyond Disney using MCU movies as their tool to promote they theme rides and their toys, I have to kind of agree with Scorsese on that factor, even if I don't really agree with him completely that MCU movies are not cinema.

Scorsese if I do recall has done more R rated movies than PG for many reasons and I have never seen any best director serious list where he has never made the top 10, him and Spielberg also and the reality now that some refuse to understand why Scorsese and others options more for R just only because R goes against the MCU narrative does objectively shows a lack of educational understanding of cinema that Scorsese pointed too.

[Username taken]

Christopher Nolan mostly does PG-13 movies.

I don't think he's made an R-rated movie in over a decade.

Does that mean he's not a "serious" director?

[Castle]

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. First off comic book films are not the same genre as war films. And Saving private Ryan wasn't the first war film to show massive amounts of violence. It was filmed in a different way. But it wasn't the first to show how bad war is. I honestly don't understand what you are ever trying to say.

It is a same difference than comparing Apples to Oranges. Comic book movies are not war films but they have war stories and that means the same use of film making style can still apply.

There are several deconstruction type comic book films out there whether its Kick Ass or The Boys or Invincible. Why someone wants the MCU to have films like these is really beyond me. You can watch the Watchman show on HBO for more serious deeper type content. Its there. But for some reason you want Disney to make films like this. I like The Boys. That doesnt mean I want Captain America to be like The Boys. Heck I liked Invincible. That doesnt mean I want every animated movie I watch to be like that. This is lunacy.

This is because the marvel source material do open the doors to have having them, including DC.

You can watch the Watchman show on HBO for more serious deeper type content. Its there. But for some reason you want Disney to make films like this. I like The Boys. That doesnt mean I want Captain America to be like The Boys. Heck I liked Invincible. That doesnt mean I want every animated movie I watch to be like that. This is lunacy.

Marvel comics have the same deep content as watchmen, Also with Watchmen many of the content were new to the series. for instance Watchmen showed the Tulsa massacre that was not in the comics, however marvel does have many comics that has shown, the civil war, world war 1, world war, Vietnam war and so on.

There is nothing Watchmen did that marvel cannot do. it is not lunacy. Ever read a Chris Claremont or Grant Morrison Marvel comic book, they have many stories that would have been adapted with better outcome that David Lindelof did with Watchmen. Not saying Watchmen comics are bad, because they are not, but Lindelof is just not a very good writer and head of anything and that many times showed with how he developed Watchmen.

[phonogram12]

Christopher Nolan mostly does PG-13 movies.

I don't think he's made an R-rated movie in over a decade.

Does that mean he's not a "serious" director?

No. He needs more needless slo mo, silent brooding for no apparent reason, and at least 45 min of extraneous material after the movie's officially ended for that. Oscars mean nothing if they don't have those things.

[Noodle]

Objectively MASH did not do a better job showing the horrors of war than any r rated war film. this is the reason, no can point to any video evidence of MASH that was as gripping as the rawness of war as saving of private ryan because that clip factually does not exist in any Mash episode and this is because CBS TV primetime cannot show anything that gripping. they cant even do it now in 2021 and even HBO may still guess twice.

Nice to know you still don't have a grasp on the differences between objective and subjective.

You don't view it as such because of what you feel something needs to be "gripping" and "show rawness" (i.e. blood and guts). Fun fact, it doesn't.

[Castle]

While I agree that R ratings don't make for better movies, that there is like you said a place for all types of movies, including superhero movies. However compared to pg13 superhero movies r rated superhero movies are very rare. And now that Disney/MCU has absorbed Fox and the X-Men back they'll become even more so. So yeah, it doesn't make movies better, but it's still kind of a shame that such a rare treat as R rated superheroics will become that more rare. There's still the DCEU taking R risks for now, but with the low BO of BoP and TSS I wouldn't be surprised to discover they're done with that rating too. And that'd literally leave just the small independent guys ala Kick-Ass, Super, and Defendor. Those 3 were over 11 years ago. After that it's just been Logan, Deadpool, Deadpool 2, Joker, Birds of Prey, and The Suicide Squad. Half that was Fox. Half the R rated films in the genre in the last decade are now off the table. So, R isn't an indicator of quality, but losing out on that diversity of ratings in the genre is kind of a shame.

Gunn is very proud of his work on SS 2, The box office flop was bad strategy mixed with the COVID Pandemic, however I see SS 2 becoming like a Fightclub kind of film in the comic book genre.

Additionally maybe it was just fox or an ''x-men'' thing but their r rated films was making more money than their pg 13 films and even their highest r rated pg 13 film Days Of Future Past was their last straw pg 13 film that was pushed. So everything about Fox and their most successful box office films pretty much speaks for itself.

R may not be an indictor for quality but it is not an indicator of quantity and vice versa. what it really just boils down to is that comic films should be free to take risk it is one of the most important way the genre grows.

[thwhtGuardian]

Objectively MASH did not do a better job showing the horrors of war than any r rated war film. this is the reason, no can point to any video evidence of MASH that was as gripping as the rawness of war as saving of private ryan because that clip factually does not exist in any Mash episode and this is because CBS TV primetime cannot show anything that gripping. they cant even do it now in 2021 and even HBO may still guess twice.

Honestly, this discussion is opening a bigger commentary of what Martin Scorsese once said that went quite ignored because people focused too much and blew out of proportions his claim that Marvel movies are not cinema, However he also made another comment I feel now would have been better listened too when he said, part of the problem is that the marvel movies are not really seriously educating people about cinema and when I read some comments here with some people try to discredit private ryan just to defend movies, Marvel don't even take seriously enough to let their own directors really direct them so completely as Spielberg did with Saving Private Ryan and not mention importantly how any themes of subject in MCU films cannot be dealt with enough that it takes more importance beyond Disney using MCU movies as their tool to promote they theme rides and their toys, I have to kind of agree with Scorsese on that factor, even if I don't really agree with him completely that MCU movies are not cinema.

Scorsese if I do recall has done more R rated movies than PG for many reasons and I have never seen any best director serious list where he has never made the top 10, him and Spielberg also and the reality now that some refuse to understand why Scorsese and others options more for R just only because R goes against the MCU narrative does objectively shows a lack of educational understanding of cinema that Scorsese pointed too.

Spoken like someone who has never seen the finale of MASH, "Goodbye, Farewell and Amen"

[Kirby101]

Scorsese if I do recall has done more R rated movies than PG for many reasons and I have never seen any best director serious list where he has never made the top 10, him and Spielberg also and the reality now that some refuse to understand why Scorsese and others options more for R just only because R goes against the MCU narrative does objectively shows a lack of educational understanding of cinema that Scorsese pointed too.

This paragraph objectively shows a lack of understanding of movies. Particularly how genre and subject should dictate how the film is made, vis a vis it's rating.

[Midvillian1322]

This paragraph objectively shows a lack of understanding of movies. Particularly how genre and subject should dictate how the film is made, vis a vis it's rating.

Lol yea Like if someone who makes 90% adult aimed MOB movies is a good barometer on how to make Comicbook movies. There is no need for an R rating rating for 98% of Comicbook properties. These and a films about the MOB have next to no overlap. Spielberg is a better example as he makes films with more variety. And he has a nice mix of R and PG/Pg13. The films that are R make sense too Saving Priavte Ryan and Schindlers list for example. Captain America wouldn't have been made better if soldiers heads were getting blown off when they were storming bases. Black Panther wouldn't have been better if they showed the women Nakia was protecting getting raped/Tortured /Or mutilated. It's just not the films being made. If Marvel makes a Punisher films about the horrors of war set in Vietnam or Iraq. Then yea the R rating would be a tool to add to that story. Not saying that can't do it without but it could be an aid.)

[Castle]

This paragraph objectively shows a lack of understanding of movies.
I will like a little more subtance when I get a reply comment.


Particularly how genre and subject should dictate how the film is made, vis a vis it's rating.

[/QUOTE]

Interesting, What lack of understanding to movies did I miss when I have already explained countless times why some directors choose R including James Mangold Logan. That was all subject matter, in a genre of comic book films. This is not even me, this is Mangold who said so when he chose to make Logan R. So that does me he has a lack of understanding?

this really has no substance to what I said as it does not really answer anything I said either, So I will just make it simple. Every subject matter in humanity can and has made its way to a comic book story, Marvel included. this is why if I remember correctly there was even an MCU fan that once said, if any studio were to adapt Chris Claremont God Loves, Man Kills, it will be best to make it R because of the subject matter. So in reality we can even argue X-MEN 2 was unnecessarily contained to PG 13.

Here is the explanation of the story that carries substance to any stance why this will be an R film.



Lets also go further to subject matters and genre of a marvel comic book tilted God Loves, Man Kills, If this scene is acted live on film, it will factually get R Rated.

4033264-1334462448-Ws63u.jpg


Lastly remember about what I said, it was more about Scorsese comments about cinema academia that I can see where he is perfectly coming from, so what will now be implied is that Scorsese lacks an understanding of subject matters and genre, which from what I can see, he does not when you look at his filmography when he goes for R rated and when he stays PG 13 all in different genres he has done.

So there we have it, with my not understanding claims, although in reality I have given 3 strong objective examples of how subject matters works in any genre that will be good for R rating backed up by A Chris Claremont story, a 2003 comic film that feels watered down now and Scorsese filmography.

Please don't ever tell me I have a lack of understanding of movies subject maters and genre again.LOL