Is the Marvel Age Of Movies Done?

[Vakanai]

I stand corrected, although if we want to go into the realm of pure semantics, being shot in the foot or hand doesn't necessarily mean you'll loose that foot or hand depending on the severity of the wound.

True, but I was merely measuring it from a probable or statistical worst case scenario - which are you better off having injured or lost? Neither is ideal, and having had to use a wheelchair once for three months I can tell you not being able to walk is a surefire way to drive you crazy, it's still not as bad I think as not being able to use one of your hands.

[WebLurker]

I think at some point nearly every contributor to this thread has pointed out that Marvel is not cookie cutter, and been very specific about why, and yet this basic concept is something that seems to eternally escape you.

I don't even understand why he thinks they're all the same, given that he's never offered a concrete explanation (it's always vague stuff like "humor" and "bad CGI," which have nothing to do with "formula").

This comment also betrays an underlying contempt for kid-friendly movies about characters that are inherently meant to be kid-friendly, yet you treat that concept like it's a failing.

Not to mention how many "kid friendly" movies not only reach out beyond that demographic, but are also quite mature in their themes and storytelling.

[QUOTE=green_garnish;5648409]Superhero movies that are not kid-friendly have very little point to being made.

Think it's case by case. For example, Logan wasn't kid-friendly, but had a specific story to tell where all that worked.

haven't seen Black Widow so I can't comment on how good it is, other than that doesn't seem to be a broad criticisim of the film so far.

It was pretty good and can't say that the effects were any level of bad. (Have to say, I don't get friend Castle's thing about how poor CGI rendered the movie bad overall, or heavy use of CGI makes for less mature films than ones made with more practical effects.)

OTOH, the MOS, BvS, ZSJL films have all had terrible CGI, if not in actual image quality (which is suspect) then certainly in the way the CGI is edited.

Will say that his Doomsday was a pretty bad design in how it failed to emote that well, compared to something like Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean or Thanos from the Marvel movies. Also have found that Snyder's skill at visuals and composition feels extremely overrated compared to the masters of the craft, but that's me.

That's a handy excuse for a director who was never seriously a contender for the job in the first place. It's not like Zack Snyder or anything, who was actually hired for a job and then fired from it while everyone went along with a convenient PR excuse for stepping away.

Don't get how a wider collaboration is inherently inferior to having one dominate voice directing the project (TV is predominately made by multiple people rather than a singular person). Whatever makes the stronger product is what matters, and goodness knows that we've seen plenty of "soulless," "mass-produced" films, TV shows, and the like have a genuine impact and resonate with people, while the most artsy, independent work imaginable fail to strike a chord or live up to its ambitions.

You keep saying stuff like this, and then you follow it up with statemebnts like Snyder is an artuer, demonstrating a complete lack of understanding of quality fim making at any leve.

One can lack the understanding of how art is produced and still appreciate the art in general (how many of us are actually comic book writers or filmmakers?). I mean, I have a writing and graphic design degrees, so, while unpublished, I do feel I have some level of qualification to intelligently comment on those aspects in regards to film and illustrated media, but I don't know all the fine points of filmmaking, even if I do take some interest in how stuff is made and like sharing my thoughts.

I don't see a contradiction in Snyder being an auteur and a bad filmmaker, though. The fallacy is in the assumption that being an auteur in inherently makes him a great filmmaker, when it simply just means that he had enough creative control that it's seen as his movie through and through, rather than "just" being one of the people who collaborated on it.

The Snyder cut is going to sail away into well-deserved obscurity. Little is remembered about it already, and in a couple of years it will be a trivia question.

I kinda think it's too early to know what the legacy of the Snyder Cut will be (even though it's certainly proving to have fizzled out in the short term, from failing to be the juggernaut AT&T wanted to how the "Restore the Synderverse" campaign fell like a lead balloon). On the other hand, it's one of the ultimate "dancing bear" movies (as in the saying "The marvel is not that the bear dances well, but that the bear dances at all."). It's only true importance is that it exists; everything else about it is almost irrelevant. I agree that it's not going to last (esp. since how the Snyderverse is dead and the DCEU had moved on hard to more successful things), but who can say exactly how it'll age when we're still trying to understand what it means in the here and now?

Also I doubt GOTG can be a real heavy movie like TDK that he thinks is also kid friendly.

False equivalence (nor for that matter did Gunn make any comparisons to Dark Knight, or anything else, for that matter). Also, considering how well the previous two films did in marrying drama and serious material with the funnier bits (in some cases, the contrast between the two enhancing both elements), Gunn certainly has the chops to pull it off. (Heck, he might the only one who could pull it off.)

...you cannot have a heavy movie and keep that amount of Disney quipping comedy and colourful animated cgi tone...

And yet that's Disney's bread and butter; we keep forgetting just how dark Disney's colorful "kid's stuff" will go. Even Zack Snyder, lover of all things dark and gritty and "adult," has never reached the darkest and most mature places that Disney (animated or otherwise) has gone to. Course, Snyder's stuff, at least the Snyderverse, isn't dark or mature filmmaking. Heck, Black Widow, the latest MCU offering, turned out to be darker and more mature than Snyder will ever be capable of.

[Maestro 216]

Darker and mature? Didn't Yelena do quips half the time?

[chicago_bastard]

Darker and mature? Didn't Yelena do quips half the time?

Firstly, more mature than a Snyder movie isn't exactly a high bar to cross.

Secondly, humor has nothing to do with a movie not being mature, otherwise movies like Get Out couldn't be labeled mature.

That said, Yelena's humor was a way of compensating the things that were done to her. Such coping mechanisms exist in real life, too.

[Castle]

I don't even understand why he thinks they're all the same, given that he's never offered a concrete explanation (it's always vague stuff like "humor" and "bad CGI," which have nothing to do with "formula").


]

Actually the Black Widow's opening credit is pretty cliche because of the song, if u go back to some of the spoiler thread, some did bring up this issue, marvel or even comic films have over done the music thing. also this is montage of random clips, they are not scenes or specific, . I am not really sure saying this is darker than anything Snyder did. The Knightmare scene was darker. Lastly directors like Snyder or even Bryan Singer, which you once tried to compare the nazi camp in xmen 1, which is just NOT comparable. these directors knew how to keep the dark tone and grittiness through to their films. MCU cannot hold onto that, they have to to fall back to their jokes, light hearted story telling and bright atmospheric tone. I dont think anyone can argue that MCU has had some darker moments, however they don't actually have dark movies like X2 or TDK, that still does not have any bad editing that brings down the entire film. lol

Darker and mature? Didn't Yelena do quips half the time?

She did. However let's look and dark and mature, in a way that does not actually sound cringe worthy or trying to be edgy, emo or angst.

Stories and franchise move on further from their starting point. it's just that simple . Look no further than the harry potter movies, which by the way is still greatly considered a children's franchise. every intro of the movies got darker, to reflect the simple TRUTH that the stories and plot lines of the series had changed drastically



This style of making a story progress as the audience grow up , may have been a difference approach like X-MEN TAS, which is still another children's tv franchise but the outcome almost feels the same. Even if something is a children's franchise, it should be hard to water it down for long or make the series that start too look less grounded and more animated. This is where I feel Disney has done Marvel, a big disservice.

[chicago_bastard]

Actually the Black Widow's opening credit is pretty cliche because of the song, if u go back to some of the spoiler thread, some did bring up this issue, marvel or even comic films have over done the music thing.

One user made a thread and called it cliche but couldn't even name two other examples and the examples they could bring up were from trailers and not even from actual movies so it was basically a fallacy.

Also if there is one director who overdoes the music thing and fails with almost every attempt it's Zack Snyder. His musical choices are so outright bad that they seem like a 10 year old came up with them. Best example is using "Zombie" from the Cranberries in Army of the Dead. I mean what was the thought process behind it? "Oh, there is a song that is called "Zombie" and I have a movie about zombies, perfect fit!"

The song deals with an incident were children got killed in an IRA bombing so using it in a trash movie about zombies shows such lack of sophistication it actually offends every person with basic intelligence. It's even worse than the cringeworthy use of "Halleluja" in his god awful owlship sex scene in Watchmen.

To show you the difference between a sophisticated musical choice and a choice made by a total hack: The song "American Pie" deals with times changing and becoming less idyllic so using it in the opening scene of BW where Nat's family flees from the "idyllic" Ohio life is a nice way to underline what's happening in the movie. The filmmaker actually knew the deeper meaning of the song and used it accordingly.

Now compare that to using a song whose themes are totally inappropriate for the movie at hand just because it has the word zombie in it. I know what they would tell you at film school as to which one is superior from an artistic standpoint.

[Castle]

One user made a thread and called it cliche but couldn't even name two other examples and the examples they could bring up were from trailers and not even from actual movies so it was basically a fallacy.

Also if there is one director who overdoes the music thing and fails with almost every attempt it's Zack Snyder. His musical choices are so outright bad that they seem like a 10 year old came up with them. Best example is using "Zombie" from the Cranberries in Army of the Dead. I mean what was the thought process behind it? "Oh, there is a song that is called "Zombie" and I have a movie about zombies, perfect fit!"

The song deals with an incident were children got killed in an IRA bombing so using it in a trash movie about zombies shows such lack of sophistication it actually offends every person with basic intelligence. It's even worse than the cringeworthy use of "Halleluja" in his god awful owlship sex scene in Watchmen.

To show you the difference between a sophisticated musical choice and a choice made by a total hack: The song "American Pie" deals with times changing and becoming less idyllic so using it in the opening scene of BW where Nat's family flees from the "idyllic" Ohio life is a nice way to underline what's happening in the movie. The filmmaker actually knew the deeper meaning of the song and used it accordingly.

Now compare that to using a song whose themes are totally inappropriate for the movie at hand just because it has the word zombie in it. I know what they would tell you at film school as to which one is superior from an artistic standpoint.

it is a common criticism with the music, Snyder does overuse music, but how much of that music is in the actual film not the trailer?

Also Smells like teen spirit is one of the most teeny booper teenage music, to use. it's as anthem for teen agnst and was not really appaoroaite for a ''spy'' movie. again there is a lot of add ons to give the movie what is actually not really deeply there, like the equivalent of some saying black panther is a movie about racism when racism is barely in the film or a major driving plot of the film. montages of what can be seen as serious themes are not the same as major developed plot points.

I wont dwell on music themes that much anymore because it is way too inconsistent to praise American pie and then slam hallelujah which has just as much meaningful ideal and spiritual themes.

Overall Black Widow as a film, does not belong in the same space as the Snyder Cut in terms of what we can call a comic book film that does want to still appeal to ''kids'' or teens (since it is r rated), and at the same time, keeping a more mature tone of the film. Black Widow is even more of a kid friendly film than Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets.

[Noodle]

Also Smells like teen spirit is one of the most teeny booper teenage music, to use. it's as anthem for teen agnst and was not really appaoroaite for a ''spy'' movie.

Tell me you know nothing of Nirvana or the Grunge movement without telling me you know nothing of Nirvana and the Grunge movement.

Also, Kurt was a very loud and vocal feminist, so using his music in a scene showing the cruelty of female trafficking was a very nice nod.

like the equivalent of some saying black panther is a movie about racism when racism is barely in the film or a major driving plot of the film.

It's hilarious how you keep stating this despite being proven wrong numerous times.

[Rincewind]

Tell me you know nothing of Nirvana or the Grunge movement without telling me you know nothing of Nirvana and the Grunge movement.

Also, Kurt was a very loud and vocal feminist, so using his music in a scene showing the cruelty of female trafficking was a very nice nod.



It's hilarious how you keep stating this despite being proven wrong numerous times.

BP addressed aspects of racism with more nuance than an Afterschool Special. This is in contrast to Zach Snyder movies, which are about as subtle as a baseball bat to the face.

[Kirby101]

The problem with the music in Black Widow is it didn't have a village of Norwegian women singing a long, slow song while she walked into the water.

[chicago_bastard]

I wont dwell on music themes that much anymore because it is way too inconsistent to praise American pie and then slam hallelujah which has just as much meaningful ideal and spiritual themes.

That was not the point. "Hallelujah" as a song is perfectly fine, it's the context in which a filmmaker puts it in his movie that I'm discussing. Please tell me the deaper meaning behind using that song when showing a completely gratuitous sex scene between Nite Owl II and Silk Spectre II. It just doesn't have any meaning. Same goes for "Zombie" and the majority of songs Snyder has used in his movies.

Overall Black Widow as a film, does not belong in the same space as the Snyder Cut

You are right on this one, they don't belong in the same space.

Just another thing, here's a recent interview with David Goyer, screenwriter/story contributor to The Dark Knight, Man of Steel, and Batman v Superman, among others. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/mo...ew-1234983774/

When asked what he believes to be the best superhero movie of all time he gave his top four: The Dark Knight, Logan, Captain America: Winter Soldier, and Thor: Ragnarok. Funny how someone who has worked with Nolan and Snyder on their DC movies still thinks that two MCU movies are on par with TDK and Logan. Even more funny that he didn't include a Snyder film.

[80sbaby]

Calling Smells like Teen Spirit "teeny bopper" is a hilariously bad take.

[Username taken]

it is a common criticism with the music, Snyder does overuse music, but how much of that music is in the actual film not the trailer?

Also Smells like teen spirit is one of the most teeny booper teenage music, to use. it's as anthem for teen agnst and was not really appaoroaite for a ''spy'' movie. again there is a lot of add ons to give the movie what is actually not really deeply there, like the equivalent of some saying black panther is a movie about racism when racism is barely in the film or a major driving plot of the film. montages of what can be seen as serious themes are not the same as major developed plot points.

I wont dwell on music themes that much anymore because it is way too inconsistent to praise American pie and then slam hallelujah which has just as much meaningful ideal and spiritual themes.

Overall Black Widow as a film, does not belong in the same space as the Snyder Cut in terms of what we can call a comic book film that does want to still appeal to ''kids'' or teens (since it is r rated), and at the same time, keeping a more mature tone of the film. Black Widow is even more of a kid friendly film than Harry Potter and The Chamber of Secrets.

Smells like Teen Spirit is NOT teeny bopper music. Like…seriously.

That’s like saying something like “Tears in Heaven” is a christian song because of the name.

[Castle]

Tell me you know nothing of Nirvana or the Grunge movement without telling me you know nothing of Nirvana and the Grunge movement.

Also, Kurt was a very loud and vocal feminist, so using his music in a scene showing the cruelty of female trafficking was a very nice nod.



It's hilarious how you keep stating this despite being proven wrong numerous times.

Actually I quite do with Nirvana and Grunge. LOL, Smells like Teen Spirit in the content of what this movie should have been, did not just work. A music theme for that Black Widow scene, would have been something more like Adele's Skyfall. That would have been more fitting, but I guess, the difference is that unlike Black Widow, we are supposed to take Skyfall more seriously as a Spy film and also yeah, Skyfall is a lot more gritter and more captivating as a spy film.

It's hilarious how you keep stating this despite being proven wrong numerous times.

Actually I wasn't. it's ironic that I mentioned Chamber of Secrets. that movie is actually a movie about racism and prejudice since that was the main plot of the entire plot does focus on the discrimination between pureblood wizards and muggleborn wizards and we get to see muggleborn wizards abused and even getting killed and petrified. Chamber of Secrets is still seen as one of the more kid friendly harry potter films to the later films like Half Blood, but even by marvel standard Chamber of Secrets is a far heavier and darker film, so the inherently kid friendly narratively that green garnish once said to me , really does fall apart when you extend these fictional story beyond to comics to even fantasy.

[Noodle]

Actually I quite do with Nirvana and Grunge. LOL,

Clearly you don't based off your assessment and labeling of it.

Actually I wasn't. it's ironic that I mentioned Chamber of Secrets. that movie is actually a movie about racism and prejudice since that was the main plot of the entire plot does focus on the discrimination between pureblood wizards and muggleborn wizards and we get to see muggleborn wizards abused and even getting killed and petrified. Chamber of Secrets is still seen as one of the more kid friendly harry potter films to the later films like Half Blood, but even by marvel standard Chamber of Secrets is a far heavier and darker film, so the inherently kid friendly narratively that green garnish once said to me , really does fall apart when you extend these fictional story beyond to comics to even fantasy.

Firstly, where did I ever state anything about Chamber of Secrets or state anything of it's quality or message?

Secondly, something being "darker and heavier" doesn't mean the subject isn't there, or handled just as well, in other films. You seem to be on this weird notion that a film has to be dark to be good or tackle any kind of message. You're wrong.

Racism was a large part of Black Panther, and was one of the driving motivations of it's antagonist, as well as why Wakanda was a secluded nation. But because they didn't beat you in the face with it, it's apparently lost on you.