Is the Marvel Age Of Movies Done?

[Castle]

Hmm...Punisher has been the star of three feature length movies and a Netflix series. We can argue about how good or bad those things were, but I'm not sure what you mean about him not reaching his "potential"...

As far as Kingpin being "regulated" to Netflix...those Netflix Marvel shows were mostly well received ( except for Iron Fist and even that did well enuff to get a 2nd season). .

The Netflix shows did not mean much to Disney and the MCU as the Disney plus shows like Wandavision, Loki, so by that standard is regulation to me. The Netflix shows even got less credible recognition as part of the MCU compared to ABC Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter.

Vincent D'onofrio did a great job with the role in my opinion. Just because a movie is released in theatres, that doesn't make it automatically worthy of great status than something on TV or a streaming service

He needs to be on the big screen, I think he would have been the other Marvel villain who would have brought an authoritative presence to marvel films apart from Ian Mckellen's Magneto. However at the same time, I don't see tom Holland Spiderman taking him on. I would not even have seen an early Tobey Maguire Spiderman taking him on. Vincent's Kingpin would have been good for a Sam Raimi Spiderman 5 kind of movie.

[Username taken]

This Kingpin discussion is very weird.

Is the Kingpin more inherently violent than say the Joker that’s appeared in multiple movies and series some that are G-rated all the way to R. I would argue that Norman Osborn as a character has committed far darker, violent, heinous actions than the Kingpin and has appeared in PG-13 movies.

And most importantly, Kingpin started off as a Spider-man villain in material that’s not close to being rated R.

[inisideguy]

This Kingpin discussion is very weird.

Is the Kingpin more inherently violent than say the Joker that’s appeared in multiple movies and series some that are G-rated all the way to R. I would argue that Norman Osborn as a character has committed far darker, violent, heinous actions than the Kingpin and has appeared in many PG-13 movies.

And most importantly, Kingpin started off as a Spider-man villain in material that’s not close to being rated R.

Yea interesting character. I would bet a lot of what we are discussing here is discussed in the Marvel Film offices. Kingpin great villain. How do we portray this guy if we bring him in? How should he come across? What level of violence should he portray? I don't know thats why I think to me this Moonknight tv show is the most interesting project coming up that Marvel has. Because how they do him will answer a lot of the questions we are asking.

[ed2962]

I mean with Harley, she comes from a really dark place to begin with. I mean the Joker is a dark character. Marvel has similar characters, there is probably no one as horrible/evil as the red skull, but Marvel killed him off early. So in that respect they managed to avoid him. LOL. Even if he is a great character.

Oh sure...but think of the the Joker story that re-established Joker as a homicidal maniac in the early 70's, "The Joker's Five Way Revenge". He murders former members of his old gang. It's still dark but if you followed the comic as a storyboard, you could put it on network TV. Same with Harley's origin from "Mad Love". But after BATS, Harleys started showing up in video games and the first Suicide Squad movie in these slutty hoochie suits. The Harley/Ivy shipping stuff is less problematic, but in certain other ways, I think the character got co-opped by edgy fans and DC followed suit.

[inisideguy]

Oh sure...but think of the the Joker story that re-established Joker as a homicidal maniac in the early 70's, "The Joker's Five Way Revenge". He murders former members of his old gang. It's still dark but if you followed the comic as a storyboard, you could put it on network TV. Same with Harley's origin from "Mad Love". But after BATS, Harleys started showing up in video games and the first Suicide Squad movie in these slutty hoochie suits. The Harley/Ivy shipping stuff is less problematic, but in certain other ways, I think the character got co-opped by edgy fans and DC followed suit.

I am not a Deadpool expert but he didn't start out like he is now either did he?

[ed2962]

Well I mean there could be a point here. Is Kingpin really regulated to how Vincent portrayed him? I don't really know. I think you still can do a good Kingpin within the context of the MCU framework. Would it be different? Yea. But it could still be done well.

Oh, I agree. Another actor could do an even better job than Vincent at portraying Kingpin on screen. I was just pushing back against the idea that any theatrical movie is deserving of more critical regard or artistic status than any TV series.

[inisideguy]

Oh, I agree. Another actor could do an even better job than Vincent at portraying Kingpin on screen. I was just pushing back against the idea that any theatrical movie is deserving of more critical regard or artistic status than any TV series.

Yea I have mixed feelings about the Netflix stuff. There was a lot of great acting there. But they all had limited production budgets. In some sense within the framework of what they were it worked. In other ways they were typical Neflix shows with things drawn out way to much. But some people do enjoy that form of storytelling. I was always battling with the format in that they did hook me and get me to want to see the next episode but was frustrated with the pacing, and the plotting. But lots of great individual performances.

[ed2962]

I think a lot of stuff simply comes down to what a director wants to do.

Guys like Christopher Nolan basically makes PG-13 movies with very serious subject matter. Certainly more than movies like Deadpool or BoP or any of the X-men movies.

A PG-13 could cover a whole lot of ground without graphic violence, nudity or swearing. Marvel has done stuff like that with Black Panther and Black Widow.

There’s a reason why BP got acclaim for themes over the X-men movies. What really hurt that series was the sheer amount of nonsense in-between from the shoddy, rushed production of X-men 3 to X-men Origins Wolverine (complete with studio interference) and even more recently with Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix. Fox didn’t handle that franchise as well as they could.

Marvel shouldn’t have any problem with handling the themes of the X-men and still have the movies entertaining within a PG-13 rating. Fox pretty much messed the mainline franchise.

Plus those theme were addressed in Comics Code Approved comics 30-40yrs ago. You don't need to go hard R to talk about them.

[ed2962]

The Netflix shows did not mean much to Disney and the MCU as the Disney plus shows like Wandavision, Loki, so by that standard is regulation to me. The Netflix shows even got less credible recognition as part of the MCU compared to ABC Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter.


He needs to be on the big screen, I think he would have been the other Marvel villain who would have brought an authoritative presence to marvel films apart from Ian Mckellen's Magneto. However at the same time, I don't see tom Holland Spiderman taking him on. I would not even have seen an early Tobey Maguire Spiderman taking him on. Vincent's Kingpin would have been good for a Sam Raimi Spiderman 5 kind of movie.

Disney is ( was) making money off those Netflix shows. Don't kid yourself they don't care care them. It exactly the reason they pulled them from that service...they wanted to keep future profits to their own streaming service.

Being on the big screen is not the be all and end all. Especially these days.

[Vakanai]

I mean sure its dark in that everyone dies. But I don't know if that means its any darker than Iron Man dying at the end of endgame or the Vision getting his infinity stone ripped out of his head, in Infinity war, or the Black widow falling to her death in Endgame.

True, but I wasn't comparing it to the MCU personally, just how it stacked to the other Star Wars films. There might be one or two that's a bit more of a downer, but the "everyone dies" puts it up there in the franchise I think on that front. Still mostly ends on a hopeful note of course, which takes the sting out of it.

[Username taken]

Yea I have mixed feelings about the Netflix stuff. There was a lot of great acting there. But they all had limited production budgets. In some sense within the framework of what they were it worked. In other ways they were typical Neflix shows with things drawn out way to much. But some people do enjoy that form of storytelling. I was always battling with the format in that they did hook me and get me to want to see the next episode but was frustrated with the pacing, and the plotting. But lots of great individual performances.

That's the problem with Netflix.

As good as the Marvel shows were (Iron Fist being the exception because that one was trash), they fail prey to the "Netflix formula".

The Netflix formula basically has the pacing of the series drop off and plotting become drawn out in the middle because the series has to hit a certain number of episodes. It's like the story telling ceases to be organic after a whole.

Netflix has scaled back a bit on this in recent times but it's still there in their series.

[ed2962]

I am not a Deadpool expert but he didn't start out like he is now either did he?

Oh, yeah...a lot of Deadpool's character development came after Rob Liefeld. Most people credit it to Fabian Nicieza and Joe Kelly. But even still, it was in mainstream comics that were pretty much in a PG-13 area. I will admit though they was a Deadpool MAX series, but I don't think it was a big as hit as his other popular series.

[Vakanai]

Yea interesting character. I would bet a lot of what we are discussing here is discussed in the Marvel Film offices. Kingpin great villain. How do we portray this guy if we bring him in? How should he come across? What level of violence should he portray? I don't know thats why I think to me this Moonknight tv show is the most interesting project coming up that Marvel has. Because how they do him will answer a lot of the questions we are asking.

I think, if you've seen most MCU films and/or the new series, you know exactly how they'll do him. He won't be darker than what's already been in the MCU. Doesn't mean it'll be bad or wrong or anything else related to quality, just means if you're asking these questions you really shouldn't - it'll fall in lock step with the tone, style, and general level of light/dark/silly/serious as the rest of the MCU. If you're expecting it to go darker or more serious than the MCU has to date, you're going to be disappointed.

I'm not arguing for or against it, just stating the simple fact that the MCU is gonna MCU.

[inisideguy]

That's the problem with Netflix.

As good as the Marvel shows were (Iron Fist being the exception because that one was trash), they fail prey to the "Netflix formula".

The Netflix formula basically has the pacing of the series drop off and plotting become drawn out in the middle because the series has to hit a certain number of episodes. It's like the story telling ceases to be organic after a whole.

Netflix has scaled back a bit on this in recent times but it's still there in their series.

Yea I know they are two different formats and they are completely different shows, But with AOS or Agent Carter and AOS had a crap ton of episodes, I never felt they were dragging things out. I rarely ever felt like this freaking show is taking a plot and going around in circles or these scenes are to long. I always felt that way with Netflix stuff. Some people see that way of doing a show as building up suspense or something. I see it as time wasting.

[inisideguy]

I think, if you've seen most MCU films and/or the new series, you know exactly how they'll do him. He won't be darker than what's already been in the MCU. Doesn't mean it'll be bad or wrong or anything else related to quality, just means if you're asking these questions you really shouldn't - it'll fall in lock step with the tone, style, and general level of light/dark/silly/serious as the rest of the MCU. If you're expecting it to go darker or more serious than the MCU has to date, you're going to be disappointed.

I'm not arguing for or against it, just stating the simple fact that the MCU is gonna MCU.

You are probably right but there could be a way in which they portray him in the sense that he is something we haven't seen before in the MCU. Meaning what we we were discussing earlier with the Indiana Jones/ Pirates of the Caribbean vibe.