So I rewatched Batman Forever...

[bat39]

Like I did with Batman and Robin last year (you can check out that post here), I decided to rewatch Batman Forever with an open mind, leaving behind any pre-conceived notions and judging it on its own merits (or lack thereof). Rewatching B & R had given me some new insight into that film (bottom-line...it wasn't as terrible as we tend to think it was), and I wondered how I'd feel after seeing Forever with fresh eyes.

Well, it wasn't redeemed in my eyes as much as I'd have thought. In a way, it was the opposite of my feelings for B & R. With B & R, I thought it was a terrible movie, and then felt it was a less terrible one with redeeming qualities. With Forever, I've always considered it an average but fun movie, and the rewatch told me its still fun, but there's a reason it deserves to be regarded as average, or even mildly terrible. Forever had the potential to be a good, even great, movie, and that got squandered. So it's frustrating.

Here's my breakdown:

The Positives

I kinda like the look of Schumacher's Gotham City. In a way, it feels like Burton's Gotham on (more) acid! Hell doesn't have to be a dark and dank place...it can be lit up with neon! There's a hint of a cyberpunk element amidst the gothic which is visually interesting and distinct from most other live-action Gothams.

Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carey turn in great performances. I don't care for these versions of Two Face and Riddler and think they butchered these characters...but the two stars do wonders hamming it up with the material they're given. The fault lies in the writing and conceptualization, not in the performances, which are honestly a BLAST to watch!

Nicole Kidman is wonderful as Dr. Chase Meridian. I daresay Chase is one of my favorite, and among the most interesting, Batman love interests across media. Bruce Wayne/Batman getting involved with a psychiatrist is an intriguing proposition. The way their relationship develops is way too choppy and abrupt (more on that later), but Kidman's performance and her chemistry with Kilmer sure sell us on this pairing.

Chris O'Donell is a great Dick Grayson, and he does a pretty brilliant job playing a character who, paradoxically, is supposed to be 'lighter' than Bruce Wayne despite suffering the same sort of tragedy and living in the same dark world.

Val Kilmer is a revelation as Bruce Wayne. Keaton's Bruce has grown on me over time, but Kilmer's Bruce remains my favorite take on everyone's favorite billionaire playboy and CEO, after Christian Bale's. He plays an understated Bruce who feels like a real person, and not just a 'mask' for Batman, or an emotionally stunted man-child. Whether its in the cave with Alfred, advising Dick, courting Chase, dealing with his past, Kilmer never fails to convince. His Batman is pretty good too - a kind of subdued version of Keaton's. This is Batman firmly in his 'superhero' prime, rather than a vigilante striking out from the shadows, and Kilmer's performance fits in with that while still retaining the mystique of the character.

In terms of story, I think the origin of Robin was handled really well. I love how the Flying Graysons, and Dick in particular, work to save the circus from the bomb. It establishes the fact that a) Dick was already a hero before the idea of becoming Batman's partner was ever on the horizon, and b) He already has some of the skills needed to hold his own in the field and save lives, so his confidence in becoming Batman's partner is not entirely misplaced.

Last but not least, the exploration of Bruce Wayne's psyche was handled well...or rather, had the potential to be handled well. This was the first film to really delve into Bruce's motivation to become Batman (even Batman '89 didn't really delve into it all that much even though it showed us the Wayne murders). Its a criminal shame that this particular sub-plot (which I believe has been expanded in deleted scenes) wasn't done justice. We also get to see hints of the psychological and emotional toll this double-life has had on Bruce, and the possibility of him giving up the cowl to pursue happiness with Chase - again, themes that other adaptations, and the Nolanverse in particular, were given the space to pursue this film wasn't. I think the parallel between the murder of the Waynes and its impact on Bruce, and the murder of the Graysons and how that reignited Bruce's truama over his own parents death, is another understated high-point of this film. Definitely, Bruce's explanation of the ''no-kill rule'' to Dick and the logic behind it makes a lot more sense here than it does in many other versions, where it can come across as a bit sanctimonious.

The Negatives

Oh boy, where do I begin?

The villains are a big one, positives of the performances notwithstanding. Its simply jarring to switch from 'serious' plot threads like Bruce's relationship with Chase, and his unresolved trauma over his parents' death, to Jones and Carey basically competing to out-ham Jack Nicholson! Conceptually, the Two Face character is butchered, to put it mildly. The brief news report about his origin talks about how the acid attack caused brain damage, rather than mentioning any of Harvey's psychological issues, and that's just as well...brain damage I guess is a semi-plausible excuse for this particular version of Two Face, who's whole personality is pretty much...inexplicable...apart from invoking the rule of camp and the rule of ham! The lair with the two molls, the 'angelic' one and the 'devilish' one, is just pure cringe. There's zero effort made to develop Two Face, his inner schism, and his desire for vengeance against Batman. Hell, they off-handedly suggest that Harvey knew Bruce before without even dedicating a minute to unpack that relationship!

Jim Carey's Riddler fairs slightly better, in that they actually make an effort to give him a half-decent character arc, but ultimately he just comes across as ''unhinged stalker/mad scientist'' who becomes ''very unhinged stalker/mad scientist/CEO/super-villain'' because the plot demands it! On paper, the idea of a villain who specifically hates Bruce Wayne, rather than Batman, is an interesting one...but they introduce this intriguing premise and then pretty much ignore it for most of the film, until he figures out that Bruce is Batman. And the idea that he doesn't kill Bruce when he has the chance because he wants to ''humiliate'' him loses a lot of its potency when we see him blow the Batplane out of the air!

I've talked about Chase being a net positive, but the presentation of the character is...weird. A psychologist who's so obsessed with Batman that she literally fakes an emergency to summon him to the GCPD rooftop to seduce him?! That doesn't at all tally with the much more serious character she's presented as for the rest of the film. The woman who helps Bruce get through his trauma doesn't match up with the crazy chick who's desperate to ''get under Batman's cape''. It's just weird, and I wonder how Nicole Kidman felt about this strange schizophrenia surrounding her character...

The pacing of the film too gets strange towards the end. Nygma goes from robbing banks to setting up Nygma Tech as Wayne Enterprise's top competitor awfully fast! Bruce seems to fall in love with Chase, to the point where he wants to give up being Batman after, what, meeting her two or three times on-screen? Also, while I think Bruce wanting to give up the cowl and settle down with a woman is perfectly in character (contrary to what some fans might say), the idea that he'd do that in the middle of two super-villains rampaging through Gotham is totally out of character! Then you have Dick storming off after Bruce gives up being Batman only to randomly show up again because...well, I guess the script needed him to come back and be Robin dammit!

Bruce's decision to not quit being Batman comes out of nowhere, almost as much as his decision to quit in the first place. In fact, I don't even think we see him making that decision on-screen...all we see is him saving both Dick and Chase, and then giving Nygma a talk about how he's both Bruce Wayne and Batman because he 'now' chooses to be. Its a great piece of dialogue, but the narrative doesn't really do the legwork of getting us to the point where that moment feels earned.

Hell, the ending doesn't even address the future of Bruce and Chase's relationship. Like, are they still dating? Does Bruce still want to settle down with her even though he's going to continue being Batman? Has he decided he can't be with her because he's Batman? What does she feel about the whole thing? After building Chase up as potentially this great love of Bruce's life, who almost got him to give up his lifelong mission, the film gives us nothing as far as where this relationship goes! I mean, from the next movie, we know that obviously Bruce and Chase didn't get married or anything and he started dating Julie Madison at some point, but we don't actually even know what became of the Bruce-Chase pairing at all! At least Burton ended his first film with Bruce and Vicky in a relationship, and his second film explaining how and why they broke up in the interim. So yeah, that's a major bummer in terms of one of the best subplots of the film...

Look, Batman Forever is one of the first Batman films I watched as a kid, and I'll always have a soft spot for it. But I hate to say, its still a pretty disappointing film on rewatch...mostly because it had the potential to be great, but that greatness is perpetually just out of reach...

[KrustyKid]

All great points. I definitely agree. There was certainly potential, there were just a number of things that would have needed to be removed or altered to reach that level.

[Mace Dolex]

Good points to the OP, it had some potential while Keaton was still the standard on portrayals of Batman I was happy to see a fresh take with Val Killer, he was younger, had a good Batman voice and could have stayed on a few more sequels had unforeseen circumstances not happened behind the scenes.

Riddler and Two-Face are great villains and can be handled right but not so in this film , both Carry and Jones seemed to out act each other seeing who could be the most annoying part of the film.

......and then of course we get a shot of Batman's rubber butt, case closed.

[spatterdasher]

I fully admit this is my favorite Batman movie. Yes, it's awful, but I enjoy myself immensely every single time I watch it. I'm not sure why, since I was bored out of my mind by Batman and Robin, and I can't put my finger on what makes the two movies so different for me. I read OP's Batman and Robin post to try to figure it out and I think maybe they're on to something when they said that Batman and Robin has more of a problem with clashing tones than Batman Forever does. The most serious plot points in Batman Forever (as opposed to the entire dying Alfred plot in Batman and Robin) is Bruce trying to process his trauma, which I think is the weakest part of the movie, and even then it's presented in a very campy way, with spooky haunted-house-style flashblacks, Chase Meridian hitting on him the whole time, and that ridiculous "Malaysian dream doll". So a watcher can continue to appreciate the movie as a comedy even during the more serious parts, whereas in Batman and Robin the non-campy bits just make the pace drag.

[twiztor]

i LOVE this movie. it's definitely my favorite non-animated Batman film (Mask of the Phantasm edges it out overall). It is a modern day telling of the '60s show. The perfect balance of camp and danger.
i can buy Jim Carrey's version of the Riddler. it's different than the comics, but it still works. Tommy Lee Jones' Two-Face? not so much. the character has no depth, and TLJ seemingly tries to perform bigger than Carrey. i can't even fathom why he would try that (or the director would ask for that).
i agree that all of the Chase Meridian story beats feel unearned. She's all over in this movie.
Robin's "Holy Rusted Metal, Batman!" "this metal....it's rusty......and full of holes" lines are my absolute favorite part of the whole thing. It doesn't have any reason whatsoever to work, but the delivery and reaction is just perfect.

[JBatmanFan05]

Look, Batman Forever is one of the first Batman films I watched as a kid, and I'll always have a soft spot for it. But I hate to say, its still a pretty disappointing film on rewatch...mostly because it had the potential to be great, but that greatness is perpetually just out of reach...

I'm much in the same boat, such a disappointing film. I don't even own the film (so I can't really even rewatch it right now), and that's a big deal because I'm a huge Batman fan and have some low lenient standards to own Batman films if they're a) from my childhood and b) have some redeeming qualities.

I think I'm nearing the point where I vow to myself to never watch Batman Forever again unless this Schumacher Cut is released. Like so many, I'm desperate (via my ever so slight soft spot for this film) for any version of this film to help ease my profound disappointment in it. I never even knew about this Schumacher Cut possibility until recently, and now I fear it has given me this line, this convenient excuse to not rewatch this film (the theatrical cut).

[Restingvoice]

Rewatching this I cringe at Riddler and Two-Face. I think them and Joker are basically all the same characters. The Laughing Mad type. Their gimmicks are different but personality-wise they're those lol random types. Except Joker has more screen time and back story so he has more balance between the comedic and serious stuff. Riddler and Two-Face are just comedies.

The only time Two-Face became serious is in the Circus, but that's more about what happens to the Graysons.

[Scott Taylor]

So for me the movie is second to Batman 1989. It is at its best with all the campy elements and at its worst with the serious elements. Just like the 1960s Batman in that way. And that's about at the level that I have always loved this movie.

Bad - Nothing. But if I have to chose, then the stuff with Chase and all the psychobabble and cringy dreamcatcher - bleh! Dick Grayson, too, because Chris O'Donnell was the worst. I feel that the writing and material was there but this really wasn't a good role for him. You could really cut both characters completely out and nothing changes.

Good - Everything else, from the hammy acting to the terrible action sequences which truly are terrible to the non-sensical score to the dumb Two-face parachute. All bad, all brilliant, all the time.

[Mutant God]

Like Carrey's Riddler but was dissapointed with Jones Two-Face because he could have played both sides very well, the stern DA and the vengeful mobster.

Never thought of it before but Batman seeing a psychiatrist thats obsess with sex and his leather costume makes me laugh.

[Spencermalley935]

[Mace Dolex]

Regarding the score by Elliot Goldenthal, at first I hated it because I was accustomed to Danny Elfman's signature rousing heroic themes but Elliot can produce some good music such as in Alien 3 and Demolition Man.

The main Batman theme you kind of get used to it, it starts out mysterious but it doesn't have an ending it just sort of trails off but the themes to when Bruce is having his flashbacks are quite effective, granted it's not a great Batman score but it has it's moments.

[marhawkman]

I'd like it less if it wasn't soo... exuberant about being over-the-top. It knows it's cheesy and revels in it, and while Jim Carrey's performance as Riddler makes it more fun to watch, Riddler's motives... kinda work. His schemes are executed in a few days, and he builds a massive fortress seemingly overnight, but.... enh. The actual methods and goals Riddler came up with are.... comic-booky, but understandable.

Also... Sugar and Spice were a great addition to the movie. Sure the light/dark thing is corny, but it's a superficial aesthetic. Also... Drew Barrymore and Debi Mazar(not a big name star but wow does she have a long list of credits) were great!

But again, it does have a weakness of not having a lot of depth to well, anyone. But if that's the worst thing, well it's a decent movie then.

I do kinda like the idea that Two-Face sees himself more as a crime-fighter than a villain. But his methods? well they don't really work out.