Why was DCAU WW portrayed so badly?

[SecretWarrior]

Just gonna say I'm not gonna into a power levels debate. Not directed at you, just the topic dominating other threads here have me uninterested in the topic.

I would debate Hawkgirl got less focus when the storyline with one of the biggest impacts on the show was the finale of JL and the fallout carrying on into JLU, which was all Hawkgirl. Along with the overall well-regarded romance with John Stewart.



And my response is if you're going to include stuff from WW's world, do it well. I don't think they did. Her main villains who appeared on the show were all under-served imo but to narrow in on Cheetah (Diana's arch). She was given no meaningful background on the show or relation with Diana. And her mainly plot was Bats (because of course it was him) seducing her to figure out what Lex's plan was.

And they planned on killing her off in her debut appearance and only survived because of animation error.


The criticism leveled at the Batman crush they gave Wonder Woman isn't that they gave her a love interest. It's that they made it Batman, Bruce Timm's and many who worked on the DCAU, self-admitted favorite. So it very much reeks of Bat-God and self-insert fanfic of making DC's biggest heroine have the hots for DC's golden boy and why I've always hated that relationship possibility.


Which is like saying the GL ring shouldn't be able to let John fly or shoot laser beams because they want to highlight Superman being able to fly or laser vision.



And the stuff like placing her there among Batman and Superman in the intro to imply she was Supes and Bats equal was unearned in my opinion, largely because of their own creative decisions such as making her the rookie of the group. And even then, she had way more interactions with Bats in that show because they wanted to push the Batman school girl crush. I'd be hard pressed to think of much signs of deep friendship she had in that show with Superman.

It more reflects this was around the time DC began pushing the Trinity concept in DC multimedia, so DCAU followed suit even if it didn't fit the dynamic they established in the show between the three of them.



Well, like I said earlier this is a WW fan subforum so how WW is done in adaptations is going to be the topic of debate. Not really on how well the show did GL, Flash, or the New Gods.

Hawkgirl got no focus until the Season 2 finale and the two episodes before, but her fans aren't complaining. Wonder Woman got big play on every season. Way more screentime, way more episodes, and a larger variety of storylines. Even if she also got Hawkgirl's story and Hawkgirl got nothing, people would complain that WW didn't get enough

Wonder Woman's villains were not treated worse than Flash's, GL's, etc. Besides Lex, Joker (who never appeared on JLU), and the 4th World villains, none of the villains were treated any better. It's not like the Flash fans are complaining. . . People are acting like Wonder Woman was deliberately a target of hate or something, and that's pretty far from the truth. It wasn't a Wonder Woman show, and the creators had to balance a large cast.

The Bat-Wonder Woman relationship doesn't take away from all of the episodes featuring her and no Batman at all. And it's not like Batman didn't simp for her either, but Batman fans aren't complaining, especially since he didn't do the same for other love interests on his own show or in his own mythology. Plus she had other love interests and friends, so I don't see the big deal in ignoring that one bit, especially since their flirtation never went anywhere besides friendship.

Lots of characters didn't use all of their powers to make room for other characters to shine. Superman lost his superspeed and rarely used ice breath. He was a flying brick with laser vision. At least Wonder Woman had skill and a lasso. Flash never phased so that MMH could use it more often. Wonder Woman's lasso wasn't used for truth, since MMH had telepathy. MMH never used Martian Vision so that Superman's heat vision would stand out. GL's versatility didn't make up for the fact that others were still more powerful.

Wonder Woman was a rookie in the first season so that she could be a fish out of water in man's world. They needed to give her distinguishing characteristics from Superman, not make her a Superman clone with two X chromosomes. She was always competent due to her background, and no one could call her a rookie in any of the later seasons. Flash was the real rookie, little brother throughout the show until the end of the second season of JLU. That's a rookie. Again, she got more episodes dedicated to specifically her than anyone besides Superman-- If that's not treating someone like they're part of a trinity, I don't know what is. She was also part of an inner clique of founders with Superman and Batman, which is shown in Doomsday Sanction, For the Man Who Has Everything, and the Deadman episode. Superman and her had interactions going back to Season 1, where Fury attacked man's world. Oh, and she played a big role in the first 3 season finales too.

Even in the general DC Comics forum you don't see similar threads, which is why it comes across as whining, especially when she was given so much in comparison to her co-stars.

[SecretWarrior]

Not to mention there were a number of times the show ignored J'onn's telepathy like in the scene where Bruce interrogates Deadshot.

Lots of powers were ignored to make stories work. Literally Flash alone could've resolved every episode by himself in one punch if the writers weren't careful.

[Alpha]

I thinki the best point someone here made as to why the character wasn't good in the DCAU is "Wonder Woman is inconsequential to the show". She isn't written as adding anything in particular to the team that nobody else could fulfill. For the most part, the show would be the same if she wasn't there.

[SecretWarrior]

Didn't Batman already have 2 entire shows worth of rouges at that point? And then The Batman was airing on television at the same time JLU was. Didn't really seem like there was a shortage of Batman villains...

Yeah, but people picking up a JLU dvd today, probably don't have that context. They watch the show in a vacuum, where Batman's villans just disappear and the show goes on. We're critiquing the show, not the TV line up from 15 years ago.

[SecretWarrior]

I thinki the best point someone here made as to why the character wasn't good in the DCAU is "Wonder Woman is inconsequential to the show". She isn't written as adding anything in particular to the team that nobody else could fulfill. For the most part, the show would be the same if she wasn't there.

You could say the same of every character besides Superman and arguably Hawkgirl.

[SecretWarrior]

Nobody cares about Batman and Hawkgirl in a power comparison with Wonder Woman, they should never even be in such a power comparison.

Flash was much faster, and later even stronger.

Green Lantern was maybe at the core on par, but far more versatile, especially because they even nerfed her equipment. This is a nice vizualization of the versatility difference as example:

https://gfycat.com/plumpacceptableicelandicsheepdog

Martian Manhunter the same like Green Lantern, just that he was a bigger jobber, and less in the action.

Yeah Superman started on par, but got upgraded, and Wonder Woman stayed weak, and ended a bit like nothing else but a Superman in worse.

Aquaman was underwater stronger too.

How was Wonder Woman the 2nd or 2nd to 3th strongest, if even you put Flash just for a while, Green Lantern, and Martian Manhunter on par, which even ignores all their advantages?



True, but less focus would have been arguably a good thing.



Batman was portrayed as the greatest in the DCAU, and Wonder Woman's rouges and mythologies were used terribly, you could even say Circe seemed more like a Batman villain. You seem to have a very odd idea of what a good portrayal is, showing much trash is not a good thing.



Why are you making it sound like the Batman pairing would have been a good thing?



And that makes it ok to screw up 1 of the most iconic parts of Wonder Woman? Would you also say that letting Superman and the rest not fly for a big part of the series, to highlight Hawkgirls wings, would have been ok?



So yet another, Wonder Woman is part of the trinity, but the writing don't reflects that at all moment?



No they are not, 1 part of what you say is not even true and you listed bad things as good things, and to say the DCAU was bad to anyone but Superman and Batman is not making DCAU Wonder Woman any less bad.

If Power levels were relevant, you'd see Flash, GL, Hawkgirl, and MMH fans complaining, but you don't. Batman literally has no powers, but that doesn't mean he isn't likable or interesting. Also, Hephaestus did power up her armor in his final appearance. . .

Again, besides Lex and Joker, which villain from any of the Big Seven's mythologies were written better than Wonder Woman's? Sinestro? Captain Cold? Toy Man? Clayface? Mr. Freeze? Parasite? Wonder Woman had Fury, Vandal Savage, Felix Faust, Cheetah, Circe, Ares, etc.

Lots of characters didn't use all of their powers to make room for other characters to shine. Superman lost his superspeed and rarely used ice breath. He was a flying brick with laser vision. At least Wonder Woman had skill and a lasso. Flash never phased so that MMH could use it more often. Wonder Woman's lasso wasn't used for truth, since MMH had telepathy. MMH never used Martian Vision so that Superman's heat vision would stand out. GL's versatility didn't make up for the fact that others were still more powerful. The characters were written the way they were so that they would feel unique and like they had something to contribute to a team dynamic. Wonder Woman was the skilled powerhouse. Again, she got more episodes dedicated to specifically her than anyone besides Superman-- If that's not treating someone like they're part of a trinity, I don't know what is. She got special treatment in the JLU intro. She was also part of an inner clique of founders with Superman and Batman, which is shown in Doomsday Sanction, For the Man Who Has Everything, and the Deadman episode. Superman and her had interactions going back to Season 1, where Fury attacked man's world. Oh, and she played a big role in the first 3 season finales too.

She was treated as well as every other founder, and in many instances better. Superman was a jobber, Batman had no relevant villains then no villains at all, etc.

If there's one legitimate gripe, it's that WW's and Batman's roles should've been reversed in This Little Piggy, but I don't know how the ending would work. Kevin Conroy singing worked as well as it did because it subverted to many expectations. Wonder Woman singing wouldn't have subverted anything, so the ending would have to be substantially changed in some way to have a similar impact.

[SecretWarrior]

It seems like the real way to make her stand out would've been to not use MMH at all so that her lasso could be used to compel people to tell the truth. The Flash could've phased more and GL could've used his constructs in place of J'onn's shapeshifting. You could also just get rid of Hawkgirl and use Wonder Woman as the traitor instead, a la Amazon's attack. You could swap Vandal Savage out for more Felix Faust, Ares, or Circe, making it more of a Wonder Woman show and less of a Justice League one. And then cut out any flirtation not related to Steve Trevor, since pairing her with any of her team mates would've drawn complaints and been divisive.

[Psy-lock]

Wonder Woman had Fury, Vandal Savage, Felix Faust, Cheetah, Circe, Ares, etc.

Since when are Vandal Savage and Felix Faust WW villains? And Aresia was never called Fury herself, that was just the title of the episode. She was an original character with no connection to Fury from the comics (who's not even a villain). Cheetah was treated like crap and Ares wasn't much better. Circe's the only one who was treated with some respect.

[Alpha]

I wouldn't mind seeing A League of One get adapted. It could've made a decent arc for the series or even into stand-alone movie. All they really need to do is cut out the one, single, lone line of dialogue where Diana claims she could never beat Superman.

Which, by the by, aside from making her look much weaker than him than she should be, strikes me as a very out of character thing for her to say. Diana doesn't strike me as the type of person who would ever claim she can't beat anyone or, for that matter, accomplish anything she set out to do. Wonder Woman in general, when written well, has a general "Yes I can" attitude, coupled with the fact she does have a competitive side to her. Even if she believed Superman (or anyone) was that far above her, I think she would see it as a challenge to be met, not something to just accept.
But that's beside the point.

Among other things, they've could maybe not turned Circe into a comedy character. Or at least, I agree, having Batman get turned into a pig so Diana team up with Zatanna to save him.
Maybe an arc where Queen Clea leads an uprising in Atlantis and Aquaman & Mera turn to the League for assistance and Wonder Woman is critical in defeating her because Clea has stolen Poseidon's Trident and Diana is best suited to dealing with that sort of thing. Osira could appear and offer to join the League, impressing the team with her ability to bring peace wherever she goes, only for Diana to realize she's doing it by taking away people's free will. An arc where Granny Goodness starts kidnapping members of the League to turn them into Female Furies, and Diana leads the rescue mission to save them.

I'm thinking about other ways they could've improved Wonder Woman in Justice League or stories they could've done with her, and something I've realized is the show pretty much robbed her of what unique things she could've brought.
What Diana brings to the table in a team dynamic is 1) the Lasso and its ability to defend against illusions or mind control. 2) Her compassionate nature and instinct to seek the peaceful resolution first. 3) Her exceptional fighting skills and experience.

And she had none of these things in the show.

The biggest offender is the Lasso. Wonder Woman should've been someone ideal for threats like Dr. Destiny and his nightmares, or Ultra-Humanite (or was if Grodd? I don't remember which telepathic ape it was) using his telepathy to turn the League against each other, or Eclipso possessing the team.
The creators said they took away the Lasso's power because it made resolving plots too easy, but that's a crock. It just changes the story. If Starro invades and starts taking over people's minds, Diana's Lasso can defend her and maybe free a few others, but she'd still be significantly outnumbered and need to utilize a different strategy. The Lasso doesn't negate the story, it just demands Diana play a relevant part in it.

Imagine if Dr. Destiny did try to attack her mind with her fears (And Christ, just imagine what fear Timm and co. would've given Diana) and she's able to resist or fight back because of the Lasso. It doesn't ruin the story, it just means she would be one of the heroes bringing about his defeat alongside Batman. If the Lasso could protect her from Eclipso, she AND the Flash could be forced to Die Hard their way around the satellite to save their friends.

But no. The Lasso was just a rope.

They also downplayed her compassionate and diplomatic nature, which could've offered a unique approach to certain opponents and threats. Imagine if she was the one who befriended Solomon Grundy as opposed to Hawkgirl? What if she reached out to her Justice Lord counterpart and tried appealing to her better nature? What if she had realized Amazo wasn't evil and only being misled by Luthor?
When they did finally make her a diplomat, she spent the whole time scowling and rolling her eyes like a child forced to do an unwanted chore.

It occurs to me now that all Wonder Woman ever really did in this show was punch. Seriously, was there a single villain or challenge she encountered throughout the entire show that she didn't resolve by hitting it? Even getting the Black Mercy off Bruce was just brute force ripping it off him. She realized she couldn't beat Ares' war machine only after Dove taught her a lesson about peace.
Was there any example of Wonder Woman overcoming a foe or saving the day in Justice League that involved her ingenuity, actual skills, or cunning? I really can't think of anything she did that didn't involve simple punching.

In fact, I remember an interview with one of the show's developers where they bragged that they always made sure Wonder Woman was fighting the hardest out of everyone. I know they think that proves they treated her with respect and made her appear powerful, but it kind of reveals how little use they had for her. In any given situation or battle, Diana's just in the background punching things while the other heroes actually resolve the plot. They can't think of anything useful to do with her, so just have her punching things in the background or off-screen.

And when there was no punching to be done, she did nothing. When Captain Marvel chewed out the League, she just stood there and looked sad even though she had nothing to do with what happened. I honestly wanted her at some point to say, "Hey, I just got here. What's going on?"
When Batman and Superman were getting pissy with each other over lobotomizing Doomsday and the laser cannon in the satellite, did Diana have an opinion or thoughts on the conflict? No, she just stood there in silence and looked sad.

Furthermore, did she have ANY opinion on the whole Cadmus/League conflict? Did she worry they were walking a dangerous line? Did she misunderstand Cadmus's problem with the League because she wasn't around for Superman's brainwashing and therefore lacked context? Did she at any point consider there might be a better solution to the conflict?


Damn, I'm not trying to be negative. And like I said, there were good moments with her, but seriously, the more I think about it, Justice League was an awful depiction of Wonder Woman. Just a one-note, joyless, unpleasant vision of the character. Lacking in warmth except when flirting with Batman and that one scene in the last episode where she hugs Martian Manhunter, and generally stiff and bland to highlight how much more engaging the other characters were.

Looking back on it, it seems the one thing they got right about Diana's character was her passion. She's a fiercely passionate person who truly believes in what she does. But the key thing is where that passion comes from. As said, when written properly, Wonder Woman's passion comes from a "Yes, I can!" attitude. Her passion is her idealistic belief in seeing the best in people.
The creators of Justice League, however, made her passion come from a "But I'm right!" attitude. Look back on Rich Fogel's comment where he zeroes in on the fact she's royalty. So we got a pompous, aloof Wonder Woman who does what she does because she's entitled and sneers when people don't do what she says.

I'm just gonna repost this so SecretWarrior gets why WW was inconsequential in the show.

[DochaDocha]

I'm going to run over to the Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, and Hawkgirl boards here at CBR and see if the fans on those boards complain as much as the WW fans on this board...

[I'm a Fish]

If Power levels were relevant, you'd see Flash, GL, Hawkgirl, and MMH fans complaining, but you don't. Batman literally has no powers, but that doesn't mean he isn't likable or interesting. Also, Hephaestus did power up her armor in his final appearance. . .

I don't know why you're bringing fans of Flash, GL, Hawkgirl, and MMH into this, when this thread wasn't meant to critique the DCAU's handling of their characters.

And the show made it perfectly clear Batman didn't need powers (or even equipment) to take on godlike beings like Kalibak and Darksied...

Again, besides Lex and Joker, which villain from any of the Big Seven's mythologies were written better than Wonder Woman's? Sinestro? Captain Cold? Toy Man? Clayface? Mr. Freeze? Parasite? Wonder Woman had Fury, Vandal Savage, Felix Faust, Cheetah, Circe, Ares, etc.

Like Psy-lock said, Savage and Faust aren't Wonder Woman villains. Fury was turned into a villain for the show instead of just picking, idk, Dr. Poison to spread a plague on man-kind. And Cheetah was turned into a Batman Beyond reference with the "gene splicing" origin and her kiss with Batman felt like someone thought it would be funny to have him kiss a literal cat-woman (or maybe it was someone's kink, idk).

Lots of characters didn't use all of their powers to make room for other characters to shine. Superman lost his superspeed and rarely used ice breath. He was a flying brick with laser vision. At least Wonder Woman had skill and a lasso. Flash never phased so that MMH could use it more often. Wonder Woman's lasso wasn't used for truth, since MMH had telepathy. MMH never used Martian Vision so that Superman's heat vision would stand out. GL's versatility didn't make up for the fact that others were still more powerful. The characters were written the way they were so that they would feel unique and like they had something to contribute to a team dynamic. Wonder Woman was the skilled powerhouse. Again, she got more episodes dedicated to specifically her than anyone besides Superman-- If that's not treating someone like they're part of a trinity, I don't know what is. She got special treatment in the JLU intro. She was also part of an inner clique of founders with Superman and Batman, which is shown in Doomsday Sanction, For the Man Who Has Everything, and the Deadman episode. Superman and her had interactions going back to Season 1, where Fury attacked man's world. Oh, and she played a big role in the first 3 season finales too.

Like Gaius brought up before, I would have preferred quality over quantity. Hawkwoman was a take-away character from the show for that reason IMO.

She was treated as well as every other founder, and in many instances better. Superman was a jobber, Batman had no relevant villains then no villains at all, etc.

So Batman not having his villains for two seasons made Batman look bad? He still had many amazing moments that I see people praise and saying, "see, this is why he's my favorite character", like that flashback episode with Ace.

If there's one legitimate gripe, it's that WW's and Batman's roles should've been reversed in This Little Piggy, but I don't know how the ending would work. Kevin Conroy singing worked as well as it did because it subverted to many expectations. Wonder Woman singing wouldn't have subverted anything, so the ending would have to be substantially changed in some way to have a similar impact.

Wonder Woman getting turned into a pig so Batman could sing wasn't worth it, IMO. They could have worked that into a story without humiliating Wonder Woman.

[Psy-lock]

Speaking of other villains, Gorilla Grodd was treated with far more respect than any of the WW villains. And there was also an episode of Flash fighting the Rogues, but no Wondy fighting Villainy Inc. Sinestro and Star Sapphire were at least shown as powerful villains, unlike Cheetah. Hawkgirl's arch was also treated better in the two episodes he appeared in. So yeah, pretty much everyone else's arch-enemies were treated better.

[Gaius]

Hawkgirl got no focus until the Season 2 finale and the two episodes before, but her fans aren't complaining. Wonder Woman got big play on every season. Way more screentime, way more episodes, and a larger variety of storylines. Even if she also got Hawkgirl's story and Hawkgirl got nothing, people would complain that WW didn't get enough

Yeah, of course Hawkgirl fans aren't complaining. She was promoted to founder status, had well-remembered romance with John Stewart, and had the most significant plotline of the entire show. She was all-around the best version of the "Hawkgirl" character, comics or not.

DCAU Wondy on the other hand is, at best, merely okay. I used to say it was the worst but then Injustice and Tom Taylor came along.

Wonder Woman's villains were not treated worse than Flash's, GL's, etc. Besides Lex, Joker (who never appeared on JLU), and the 4th World villains, none of the villains were treated any better. It's not like the Flash fans are complaining. . . People are acting like Wonder Woman was deliberately a target of hate or something, and that's pretty far from the truth. It wasn't a Wonder Woman show, and the creators had to balance a large cast.

I'm aware it's a team show but this is about WW so how her villains were treated is going to be subject of debate. I've already said what I've said on Cheetah but the others were far from better. The only one that got close to good was Circe and even they botched it by making that episode more about Batman and Zatanna.

The Bat-Wonder Woman relationship doesn't take away from all of the episodes featuring her and no Batman at all. And it's not like Batman didn't simp for her either, but Batman fans aren't complaining, especially since he didn't do the same for other love interests on his own show or in his own mythology. Plus she had other love interests and friends, so I don't see the big deal in ignoring that one bit, especially since their flirtation never went anywhere besides friendship.
.

It's far and away the most remembered thing about the DCAU version of Wonder Woman, it's pretty much the main thing Eisenberg brings up when she's asked about DCAU revival stuff. Which is pretty damning imo.

And yeah, of course Bat-fans aren't going to mind WW having a crush on Batman. It's always portrayed and justified in ways that play to Batman's ego, so of course they'd see "WonderBat" as a badge of honor for Wonder Woman.

Lots of characters didn't use all of their powers to make room for other characters to shine. Superman lost his superspeed and rarely used ice breath. He was a flying brick with laser vision. At least Wonder Woman had skill and a lasso. Flash never phased so that MMH could use it more often. Wonder Woman's lasso wasn't used for truth, since MMH had telepathy. MMH never used Martian Vision so that Superman's heat vision would stand out. GL's versatility didn't make up for the fact that others were still more powerful.

Yeah, and as a result they made Wonder Woman's main iconic item utterly useless. Like I said it'd be like if the GL ring couldn't do anything of the cool stuff associated with it or if Batman was mandated he doesn't get to use his utility belt, the Bat-grappler, or the Bat-mobile because it impedes on other characters in the show.

And given JL vs. Fatal Five, I'm willing to be Bruce Timm prefers Wonder Woman with a sword over the lasso.

Wonder Woman was a rookie in the first season so that she could be a fish out of water in man's world. They needed to give her distinguishing characteristics from Superman, not make her a Superman clone with two X chromosomes. She was always competent due to her background, and no one could call her a rookie in any of the later seasons. Flash was the real rookie, little brother throughout the show until the end of the second season of JLU. That's a rookie. Again, she got more episodes dedicated to specifically her than anyone besides Superman-- If that's not treating someone like they're part of a trinity, I don't know what is. She was also part of an inner clique of founders with Superman and Batman, which is shown in Doomsday Sanction, For the Man Who Has Everything, and the Deadman episode. Superman and her had interactions going back to Season 1, where Fury attacked man's world. Oh, and she played a big role in the first 3 season finales too.

Yes, and Wonder Woman material both before and after have done "WW as a fish out water" trope better than the DCAU without giving her a crush on Batman, making her a straw feminist, or a haughty princess who needed to learn some humility.

I'm not saying anyone on the show actually hated Wonder Woman. I'm just saying, like I get with most WW stuff on these JL/DC ensemble stuff across DC multimedia, they didn't care about her as much and so didn't put much effort into her or her world as they did Batman or even Superman.

[John Venus]

And given JL vs. Fatal Five, I'm willing to be Bruce Timm prefers Wonder Woman with a sword over the lasso.

Whilst I don't think Timm is a huge WW fan and that his take on WW has ways to go, I don't think he's one of those who thinks WW should be a scowling sword and shield warrior either. JL vs Fatal Five is the only instance of a Bruce Timm involved project where WW is waving a sword in her every day crime fighting life otherwise her sword use was limited to situations that warranted it.

I think Timm, like many other male writers, couldn't really wrap their head around the appeal of an all female society and were preoccupied with the idea of Diana not having a father at all in her origin. The way sexism was handled in the 2009 movie seems to imply that he thinks sexism is a thing of the past as well.

[Gaius]

Whilst I don't think Timm is a huge WW fan and that his take on WW has ways to go, I don't think he's one of those who thinks WW should be a scowling sword and shield warrior either. JL vs Fatal Five is the only instance of a Bruce Timm involved project where WW is waving a sword in her every day crime fighting life otherwise her sword use was limited to situations that warranted it.

I think Timm, like many other male writers, couldn't really wrap their head around the appeal of an all female society and were preoccupied with the idea of Diana not having a father at all in her origin. The way sexism was handled in the 2009 movie seems to imply that he thinks sexism is a thing of the past as well.

Fair enough. I admit, I don't remember much about JL vs. Fatal Five and the scene of Diana swinging a sword at Jessica Cruz to teach her lesson was an eyerolling one for me that I recalled.

But yeah, I don't think Timm or anyone on the series actually hated Wonder Woman or envisioned this series as a hit job. They just weren't as reverent to WW material as Timm and co were with Batman (and Superman to a lesser degree).