Why was DCAU WW portrayed so badly?

[phonogram12]

Close. He said he felt like he lived in a world made of cardboard. Personally I find it funny how people treat that as some great triumphant moment when you consider how the fight ended; Darkseid whips out his agony matrix, zaps Superman with it and is about to kill him. Superman lost the fight and needed Luthor of all people to step in and save him

Yeah, that was downright embarrassing for the character, quite frankly. It's difficult to even watch.

[BiteTheBullet]

Yeah, that was downright embarrassing for the character, quite frankly. It's difficult to even watch.

Is it embarrassing that Superman lost and had help? Because, Darkseid should not be someone that a hero can take on one on one in my opinion. If that could happen, he really wouldn't be that much of a global threat. I mean, get a couple of Daxamites (given that they are generally considered weaker than Superman) or something like that and the threat of Darkseid would be over. Or, have Diana and Donna combine to take him on if all we need is one kryptonian to do the same!

[Zagre]

Is it embarrassing that Superman lost and had help? Because, Darkseid should not be someone that a hero can take on one on one in my opinion. If that could happen, he really wouldn't be that much of a global threat. I mean, get a couple of Daxamites (given that they are generally considered weaker than Superman) or something like that and the threat of Darkseid would be over. Or, have Diana and Donna combine to take him on if all we need is one kryptonian to do the same!

I wouldn't call it "embarrasing" perse, but the way it was presented, with the plot snatching Superman's victory away after the story shows it as a moment of climatic triumph with Superman finally showing his strongest (and quasi-most personal) enemy his true power felt a bit "Lucy adn the football" mean spirited, so to speak.

[phonogram12]

Is it embarrassing that Superman lost and had help? Because, Darkseid should not be someone that a hero can take on one on one in my opinion. If that could happen, he really wouldn't be that much of a global threat. I mean, get a couple of Daxamites (given that they are generally considered weaker than Superman) or something like that and the threat of Darkseid would be over. Or, have Diana and Donna combine to take him on if all we need is one kryptonian to do the same!

Considering how quickly he got built up only to be taken out by a mcguffin moments later and to be saved by his worst enemy? Yeah, embarrassing.

I wouldn't call it "embarrasing" perse, but the way it was presented, with the plot snatching Superman's victory away after the story shows it as a moment of climatic triumph with Superman finally showing his strongest (and quasi-most personal) enemy his true power felt a bit "Lucy adn the football" mean spirited, so to speak.

Incredibly so.

[DochaDocha]

Close. He said he felt like he lived in a world made of cardboard. Personally I find it funny how people treat that as some great triumphant moment when you consider how the fight ended; Darkseid whips out his agony matrix, zaps Superman with it and is about to kill him. Superman lost the fight and needed Luthor of all people to step in and save him

It's one of those fights you can interpret in a variety of ways. You could say it nerfed Darkseid because Superman's line frames it to seem like he's Superman's physical inferior, whereas STAS made it seem pretty clear that Darkseid had the upper hand. You also could say it made it so Superman's arrogance led to the 'L' because if he just went rampage on Darkseid he wouldn't get trapped by the agony matrix.

My take? It's kind of out of character for Darkseid to lose a fist fight like this. I got a great chuckle at how they stole the Dragonball Z sequence, but it doesn't do Darkseid justice. Darkseid lost to Superman in STAS because he left his one vulnerability open and didn't go for the kill right away. The scene was nice as a way for the show writers to acknowledged they nerfed Superman a lot throughout the series, but the execution left someting to be desired IMO.

That has sadly also in a way happened in the DCAU, Wonder Woman and Superman both started equally nerfed, but Superman was more powerful in his own series already and became also more powerful over time in the Justice League series, and to a much bigger degree than Wonder Woman. And other characters like especially Flash were also far less nerfed than Wonder Woman, it started in general relatively even in Justice League, but during the time of Justice League Unlimited she was 1 of the most nerfed of them all already which got additionally highlighted by one of the biggest upgrades she got was that her lasso gained its literal core power.

I think early on Flash was nerfed harder than WW because of the combination that all he could use his speed for was to run fast but he'd have trouble with things like catching up with a van. Also, the joke was that you could beat him with a banana peel. He was that mentally dull and immature that he had a hard time handling threats without a chaperone. It wasn't until late in the series (we're seeing a trend here, I think) where they acknowledge how powerful Flash could be and how restrained he is.

Also, I don't think Superman was more powerful in STAS. They both come from a weak baseline, but in STAS there was no Flash or Green Lantern to bail out Superman when he got KO'd.

[Rightoya]

I wouldn't call it "embarrasing" perse, but the way it was presented, with the plot snatching Superman's victory away after the story shows it as a moment of climatic triumph with Superman finally showing his strongest (and quasi-most personal) enemy his true power felt a bit "Lucy adn the football" mean spirited, so to speak.

Considering how quickly he got built up only to be taken out by a mcguffin moments later and to be saved by his worst enemy? Yeah, embarrassing.



Incredibly so.

Even though i think it makes more sense that Superman can not take out Darkseid on his own because even back then he was often supposed to be a threat to the Justice League, the way they wrote that was truly silly, and i did not even liked it the first time i saw it. The thing is just in context of this thread, even something like that would have been a major improvement for DCAU Wonder Woman, because it would have been at least better than just being weak the entire time, Batman fangirling, or what happened with Circe and what they did with all of Wonder Woman's villains in the DCAU.

[hareluyafan1]

Is it embarrassing that Superman lost and had help?

No it's embarrassing that Superman needed to be saved by Luthor. Getting help from a teammate is fine. Needing to be saved by your worst enemy is not.

[hareluyafan1]

It's one of those fights you can interpret in a variety of ways. You could say it nerfed Darkseid because Superman's line frames it to seem like he's Superman's physical inferior, whereas STAS made it seem pretty clear that Darkseid had the upper hand. You also could say it made it so Superman's arrogance led to the 'L' because if he just went rampage on Darkseid he wouldn't get trapped by the agony matrix.

My take? It's kind of out of character for Darkseid to lose a fist fight like this. I got a great chuckle at how they stole the Dragonball Z sequence, but it doesn't do Darkseid justice. Darkseid lost to Superman in STAS because he left his one vulnerability open and didn't go for the kill right away. The scene was nice as a way for the show writers to acknowledged they nerfed Superman a lot throughout the series, but the execution left someting to be desired IMO.

That's certainly one way of looking at it.

I think early on Flash was nerfed harder than WW because of the combination that all he could use his speed for was to run fast but he'd have trouble with things like catching up with a van. Also, the joke was that you could beat him with a banana peel. He was that mentally dull and immature that he had a hard time handling threats without a chaperone. It wasn't until late in the series (we're seeing a trend here, I think) where they acknowledge how powerful Flash could be and how restrained he is.

Also, I don't think Superman was more powerful in STAS. They both come from a weak baseline, but in STAS there was no Flash or Green Lantern to bail out Superman when he got KO'd.

The writers for JL later admitted that was the problem. In STAS Superman would get knocked around by the bad guys at first, but he ultimately prevailed so he didn't come out looking too bad. In JL, he'd get knocked around but wouldn't get to bounce back and get the victory because the other heroes had already taken care of things.

Yeah, I rolled my eyes at the episode where Flash was struggling to catch up with a speeding van.

[SiegePerilous02]

It becomes embarrassing when you also remember that Batman outran the Omega Beams a few seconds prior and Superman had that character shilling line about how great Batman is and he will never quit, etc

It being his crowning moment that didn't even work because Luthor needed to save the day is damning the JLU Superman with faint praise

Still more than WW typically got, which makes it sadder

[Rightoya]

I think early on Flash was nerfed harder than WW because of the combination that all he could use his speed for was to run fast but he'd have trouble with things like catching up with a van. Also, the joke was that you could beat him with a banana peel. He was that mentally dull and immature that he had a hard time handling threats without a chaperone. It wasn't until late in the series (we're seeing a trend here, I think) where they acknowledge how powerful Flash could be and how restrained he is.

Yeah early Flash had truly some moments were he was even harder nerfed than Wonder Woman and looked like a joke, but that basically turned around later on were she was far more nerfed than him, and at least looked like a joke in that kind of comparison.

Also, I don't think Superman was more powerful in STAS. They both come from a weak baseline, but in STAS there was no Flash or Green Lantern to bail out Superman when he got KO'd.

It wasn't very often in his own series, but in these few moments he was more impressive than DCAU Wonder Woman at her absolute best, and also more impressive than his early self in Justice League. 1 of these even was with a Flash, but i think it is not clear if that was Wally or Barry.

[Gaius]

It becomes embarrassing when you also remember that Batman outran the Omega Beams a few seconds prior and Superman had that character shilling line about how great Batman is and he will never quit, etc

It being his crowning moment that didn't even work because Luthor needed to save the day is damning the JLU Superman with faint praise

Still more than WW typically got, which makes it sadder

Better than Martian Manhunter at least.

I think by the end of the show his power was screaming in pain anytime he tries something.

[Vordan]

Better than Martian Manhunter at least.

I think by the end of the show his power was screaming in pain anytime he tries something.

J’onn didn’t even carry over to JLU because his VA left lol. Definitely the most middling of the Big 7 in terms of not being terrible but never really getting his moment to shine either.

[WonderLight789]

Is it embarrassing that Superman lost and had help? Because, Darkseid should not be someone that a hero can take on one on one in my opinion. If that could happen, he really wouldn't be that much of a global threat. I mean, get a couple of Daxamites (given that they are generally considered weaker than Superman) or something like that and the threat of Darkseid would be over. Or, have Diana and Donna combine to take him on if all we need is one kryptonian to do the same!

Why donna and diana? After all, diana alone is supposwd to be a match for fully grown kryptonians.

[Zagre]

Still more than WW typically got, which makes it sadder

Seconded. WW needed her "Flash-beats-the-Brainiac-Luthor-fuson" moment.

[BiteTheBullet]

Why donna and diana? After all, diana alone is supposwd to be a match for fully grown kryptonians.

I am with you on this. The only reason I said Diana and Donna is because of low expectancy by the showrunners in regard to Diana. They nerfed her hard enough that she gets one-shotted by Kalibak, can't even take Aquaman out on land, has a bad showing against Mongul, so I figured the showrunners would never in their life let Diana get any good shots in against Darkseid. So by my thinking, if it only takes one kryptonian to take on Darkseid physically, then Diana and Donna should be able to mop up on Darkseid.

But then again, I can't see this happening on any level, more wishful thinking on my part. This is all conjecture based on the fact the showrunners pretty much didn't give a damn about Diana. She freakin' stole her armor just to get off the island and help versus a tournament or some other device to help the JL.