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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    They respected him far more than WW that is for sure. And when the push camed to shove. They still showed SM as the top gun of the team. WW was fodder for any of the top threats in that show. That never changed in the whole show. So i don't know what improvement you are talking about, i didn't see any.
    The improvements I'm talking about are trying to make her more in sync with the comic counterpart. I think they know they screwed up by not incorporating the Lasso of Truth powers. They also acknowledged she should've portrayed her as a Themysciran ambassador. And they also tried to make it clear on two occasions that she's way out of Hawkgirl's league in fighting when it was pretty ambiguous at first. They let her wield Hawkgirl's mace and said the difference between the two is WW hits a lot harder, making HG seem like a redundant fighter who brought nothing to the table but an N-th Metal mace. But all of these were late in the show, and don't really make her more interesting. She's just less of an inexperienced hothead.

    ANd as for making sure Superman was "top gun," as you put it, it was only after the creators read all the complaints about how much of a wuss he was, so the first episode of season 2, "Twilight," was written to show the fans they upped Superman, and the rest of the show followed note.

    I'm not a fan of a lot of decisions the DCAU guys did, but I credit them with being responsive to feedback on what works and what doesn't.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    The improvements I'm talking about are trying to make her more in sync with the comic counterpart. I think they know they screwed up by not incorporating the Lasso of Truth powers. They also acknowledged she should've portrayed her as a Themysciran ambassador. And they also tried to make it clear on two occasions that she's way out of Hawkgirl's league in fighting when it was pretty ambiguous at first. They let her wield Hawkgirl's mace and said the difference between the two is WW hits a lot harder, making HG seem like a redundant fighter who brought nothing to the table but an N-th Metal mace. But all of these were late in the show, and don't really make her more interesting. She's just less of an inexperienced hothead.

    ANd as for making sure Superman was "top gun," as you put it, it was only after the creators read all the complaints about how much of a wuss he was, so the first episode of season 2, "Twilight," was written to show the fans they upped Superman, and the rest of the show followed note.

    I'm not a fan of a lot of decisions the DCAU guys did, but I credit them with being responsive to feedback on what works and what doesn't.
    The ambassador aspect was only used once. So was the lasso's power. Being above Hawkgirl's leagfue should have never been a question. So how is that an achievement? Looks like Superman has more luck with complains too. WW fans hace been complaining about poor treatment for years, and yet we are still here seeing the crappy treatment she gets. Did you look at DCAU WW carring a sword in the latest movie about that universe, and how a new female Green Lantern was more of an MVP than the iconic number 1 female hero? Doesn't look like the team learned anything.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    The ambassador aspect was only used once. So was the lasso's power. Being above Hawkgirl's leagfue should have never been a question. So how is that an achievement? Looks like Superman has more luck with complains too. WW fans hace been complaining about poor treatment for years, and yet we are still here seeing the crappy treatment she gets. Did you look at DCAU WW carring a sword in the latest movie about that universe, and how a new female Green Lantern was more of an MVP than the iconic number 1 female hero? Doesn't look like the team learned anything.
    Yeah, I think you could say the WW improvements were too little, too late. I'm just trying to emphasize the difference between saying the end product is bad and the creators don't care. I think the creators do care, and while I can't always get behind their decisions, I think they deserve consideration for trying to give the fans what they want. If you want to compare Superman's treatment vs. Wonder Woman's, I think it's largely a case of the volume of complaints. Heh, maybe more WW fans need to complain more often in communities where creators lurk...

    A handful of the recent JL animated movies did have the flaw of making each new movie a showcase for whatever new character showed up. Can't argue with that.

  4. #49
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    The thing is they didn't respect Superman's power level in the DCAU until Batman Beyond (when he was the villain), and then not again until Season 2. It's not like they were pumping out great Superman stories, IMO, for much of DCAU.

    The big difference, though, was that they tried to improve Superman's writing. I think they eventually improved WW's writing, but you had to suffer through a lot of mediocrity first, and the improved WW still wasn't all that good.
    Gods yeah, the main thing annoyed me about Supes getting slapped around so much in season one was I swear the recycled the same Newbern scream for each time he got hit.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    I liked how they used Supes power levels in DCAU oops....lol.

  6. #51
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    I think one thing people forget now, at a time when Wonder Woman is one of DC's biggest and most recognizable franchises globally, is that the whole 'Trinity' thing is a bit revisionist. Wonder Woman has always been one of DC's biggest characters, being one of their oldest characters and a fellow survivor of the Golden Age along with Superman and Batman (not to mention Aquaman and Green Arrow). And of course, she's always been their No. 1 female superhero, and the iconic female superhero period. But the idea that she's part of a 'Trinity', that she's a peer to Superman and Batman, and one of the three pillars of the DC brand, is a relatively new one.

    Back in the days of the DCAU, Superman and Batman were DC's Big Guns. End of discussion. Wonder Woman was just another one of their popular and iconic characters other than the Big Two, alongside Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman etc. She was included in JL because most iconic JL lineups have Wonder Woman, like they have a Flash, GL etc.

    So its not like Timm & company were actively looking to give WW her due or to elevate her to the level of Superman and Batman, or to showcase the three of them as a Trinity. Their goal was basically to spin-off the Superman and Batman shows they'd already developed into an ensemble show, and introduce and develop five 'new' characters to join the Big Two. I seriously doubt if Wonder Woman was more important to them than, say, Flash or Hawkgirl.

    That's where the chips fell. They set about introducing the five 'new' characters. With Green Lantern and Hawkgirl, they had a lot more freedom to redefine these characters the way they wanted, since they were using versions of these characters that had little connection to their current comic-book portrayals. They'd already introduced Flash before in STAS, and they built on him being the comic relief and the 'young' and 'brash' guy on the team, giving him his memorable niche. Martian Manhunter they spent a lot of time developing since he was one of the least well-known to a mainstream audience. And then you have Wonder Woman.

    They chose to incorporate her origin story into the pilot episodes, making her the least experienced member of the team (J'onn had just come to earth of course but he was already pretty much a war veteran on Mars, and the other 'new' heroes were already established in their careers). We could have had an interesting 'Year One' Wonder Woman story, but they didn't focus on that, instead presenting her as this somewhat naive newcomer to Man's World who's developing into an experienced superhero off-screen. And of course, the occasional episode focusing on Amazonian lore and with WW villains becoming Justice League villains. Personality-wise, other than her being a bit of a fish out of water (which they didn't even play around with that much), she was basically generic 'nice' superhero...kinda a female Superman on a show where Superman himself was the definition of bland generic superhero. In the meantime, Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkgirl and Martian Manhunter got better defined characterizations and stronger arcs throughout the series (well, not so much Flash on the arc front). WW for the most part was just...there.

    So yeah, I agree that Wonder Woman ended up being the most underserved character of the Big Seven in the DCAU (and even some of the 'expanded' roster in JLU got better moments to shine). But I don't think they were wilfully setting out to create a mediocre version of Wonder Woman. It's more like WW to them was just another League member they had to deal with (rather than part of some 'Trinity') and they ended up making decisions for her that didn't work out.

    I'm pretty sure anyone making a Justice League cartoon today would handle WW with a lot more care and attention...
    Last edited by bat39; 07-19-2021 at 11:22 AM.

  7. #52

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    There were also legalities preventing them from doing WW as a guest star and while it's easy to be pessimistic and say that any guest appearance of hers would have been bad, look at how well she worked in her Brave and the Bold debut.

    WW just isn't built for an ensemble thing. Its like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Like Batman and Superman, she needs to be the star of her own show before you bring her into a team. Which leads me to my next point which is that the DCAU wasn't a planned universe like the MCU was. Essentially, the success of the first Tim Burton Batman movie lead to B:TAS, the success of which lead to Superman: TAS, then the success of Buffy and Dawson's Creek and other teen lead shows lead to Batman Beyond and then the suits really liked the JL episode on Batman Beyond so that lead to the creation of Justice League. Then once they tested the waters of DTV movies with the Superman: Doomsday movie they did the Wonder Woman movie but somehow neither WW nor the two GL movies they did did well enough in WB's eyes for them to get sequels and even now they are not willing to back any other character besides Superman and Batman even as Marvel/Disney has almost monopolized the superhero market. We are lucky to get the CW shows and there has been announcement of some projects but we will have to wait and see if they are on the right track yet.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I think one thing people forget now, at a time when Wonder Woman is one of DC's biggest and most recognizable franchises globally, is that the whole 'Trinity' thing is a bit revisionist. Wonder Woman has always been one of DC's biggest characters, being one of oldest characters and a fellow survivor of the Golden Age along with Superman and Batman (not to mention Aquaman and Green Arrow). And of course, she's always been their No. 1 female superhero, and the iconic female superhero period. But the idea that she's part of a 'Trinity', that she's a peer to Superman and Batman, and one of the three pillars of the DC brand, is a relatively new one.

    Back in the days of the DCAU, Superman and Batman were DC's Big Guns. End of discussion. Wonder Woman was just another one of their popular and iconic characters other than the Big Two, alongside Flash, Green Lantern, Aquaman etc. She was included in JL because most iconic JL lineups have Wonder Woman, like they have a Flash, GL etc.

    So its not like Timm & company were actively looking to give WW her due or to elevate her to the level of Superman and Batman, or to showcase the three of them as a Trinity. Their goal was basically to spin-off the Superman and Batman shows they'd already developed into an ensemble show, and introduce and develop five 'new' characters to join the Big Two. I seriously doubt if Wonder Woman was more important to them than, say, Flash or Hawkgirl.

    That's where the chips fell. They set about introducing the five 'new' characters. With Green Lantern and Hawkgirl, they had a lot more freedom to redefine these characters the way they wanted, since they were using versions of these characters that had little connection to their current comic-book portrayals. They'd already introduced Flash before in STAS, and they built on him being the comic relief and the 'young' and 'brash' guy on the team, giving him his memorable niche. Martian Manhunter they spent a lot of time developing since he was one of the least well-known to a mainstream audience. And then you have Wonder Woman.

    They chose to incorporate her origin story into the pilot episodes, making her the least experienced member of the team (J'onn had just come to earth of course but he was already pretty much a war veteran on Mars, and the other 'new' heroes were already established in their careers). We could have had an interesting 'Year One' Wonder Woman story, but they didn't focus on that, instead presenting her as this somewhat naive newcomer to Man's World who's developing into an experienced superhero off-screen. And of course, the occasional episode focusing on Amazonian lore and with WW villains becoming Justice League villains. Personality-wise, other than her being a bit of a fish out of water (which they didn't even play around with that much), she was basically generic 'nice' superhero...kinda a female Superman on a show where Superman himself was the definition of bland generic superhero. In the meantime, Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkgirl and Martian Manhunter got better defined characterizations and stronger arcs throughout the series (well, not so much Flash on the arc front). WW for the most part was just...there.

    So yeah, I agree that Wonder Woman ended up being the most underserved character of the Big Seven in the DCAU (and even some of the 'expanded' roster in JLU got better moments to shine). But I don't think they were wilfully setting out to create a mediocre version of Wonder Woman. It's more like WW to them was just another League member they had to deal with (rather than part of some 'Trinity') and they ended up making decisions for her that didn't work out.

    I'm pretty sure anyone making a Justice League cartoon today would handle WW with a lot more care and attention...
    She has never been treated with the same respect as batman and superman. And the fact that the creators of that showed changed her origin and personality. And portrayed her as a weaklink proved they had no respect for the character. Not then and not now. That JL movie with WW where they gave her a sword proves it. A brand new female hero was the star of that movie. But they couldn't care less about the so called most iconic female hero.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    There were also legalities preventing them from doing WW as a guest star and while it's easy to be pessimistic and say that any guest appearance of hers would have been bad, look at how well she worked in her Brave and the Bold debut.

    WW just isn't built for an ensemble thing. Its like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Like Batman and Superman, she needs to be the star of her own show before you bring her into a team. Which leads me to my next point which is that the DCAU wasn't a planned universe like the MCU was. Essentially, the success of the first Tim Burton Batman movie lead to B:TAS, the success of which lead to Superman: TAS, then the success of Buffy and Dawson's Creek and other teen lead shows lead to Batman Beyond and then the suits really liked the JL episode on Batman Beyond so that lead to the creation of Justice League. Then once they tested the waters of DTV movies with the Superman: Doomsday movie they did the Wonder Woman movie but somehow neither WW nor the two GL movies they did did well enough in WB's eyes for them to get sequels and even now they are not willing to back any other character besides Superman and Batman even as Marvel/Disney has almost monopolized the superhero market. We are lucky to get the CW shows and there has been announcement of some projects but we will have to wait and see if they are on the right track yet.
    I think it is time to stop making excuses for how badly DC and WB treat WW. They are terrible with her brand and at this point there are no excuses for it. They don't care, and i wouldn't rule out sexism being involved too. WW as a character represents certain topics that other female characters don't. So they don't represent any kind of ''threat'' to certain men with weak egos.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    I think it is time to stop making excuses for how badly DC and WB treat WW. They are terrible with her brand and at this point there are no excuses for it. They don't care, and i wouldn't rule out sexism being involved too. WW as a character represents certain topics that other female characters don't. So they don't represent any kind of ''threat'' to certain men with weak egos.
    I don't think anyone here is making excuses for WB and DC. They're trying to explain what the actual people behind the creation of the show did. You know, real human beings with passions and flaws who probably wanted to make the best possible product. I think they largely failed with WW, but we're not going to say Bruce Timm sucks, Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) was sexist, Rich Fogel has a weak ego and is threatened by WW, Dan Riba doesn't care about WW, etc.

    When they transitioned to JLU, I think you can feel up front how much importance they placed on WW, but it did fall flat. Other than making her literally on Batman and Superman's level in the intro, all we got were some uninteresting episodes and crushing on Batman. Yeouch.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I don't think anyone here is making excuses for WB and DC. They're trying to explain what the actual people behind the creation of the show did. You know, real human beings with passions and flaws who probably wanted to make the best possible product. I think they largely failed with WW, but we're not going to say Bruce Timm sucks, Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) was sexist, Rich Fogel has a weak ego and is threatened by WW, Dan Riba doesn't care about WW, etc.

    When they transitioned to JLU, I think you can feel up front how much importance they placed on WW, but it did fall flat. Other than making her literally on Batman and Superman's level in the intro, all we got were some uninteresting episodes and crushing on Batman. Yeouch.
    Yeah, pretty much this.

    That was the point I was making - Wonder Woman wasn't really part of some 'Trinity' with Superman and Batman, the way we like to imagine. She was 'just another' A-list property like Flash, GL, Aquaman etc. that came after Superman and Batman. Its only in more recent years that Wonder Woman is getting the kind of 'special status' that Superman and Batman have, and her movies are a big part of that of course.

    The DCAU's heyday was an era in which Superman and Batman had a near-monopoly on other media outside the comics. Most DC heroes other than these two had only appeared in animation on the Superfriends cartoons a generation ago. WW had had a TV show back in the 70's, and Flash had had a very short-lived TV show in 1990. That was pretty much it. So they basically needed to introduce five 'main' characters who'd had a fraction of the other media exposure the Big Two had had. Obviously decisions needed to be made, and WW got the short-straw.

    Also, I don't 'sexism' comes into it. The show's version of Hawkgirl is IMO the best interpretation of that particular character concept to date.

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    I think it is time to stop making excuses for how badly DC and WB treat WW. They are terrible with her brand and at this point there are no excuses for it. They don't care, and i wouldn't rule out sexism being involved too. WW as a character represents certain topics that other female characters don't. So they don't represent any kind of ''threat'' to certain men with weak egos.
    Nobody is making excuses. We are just figuring out and putting forth possible reasoning behind their decisions.

    But if you want to use this thread as a reciprocal to repeat how much WB and their treatment of WW sucks over and over again, then be my guest.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Yeah, pretty much this.

    That was the point I was making - Wonder Woman wasn't really part of some 'Trinity' with Superman and Batman, the way we like to imagine. She was 'just another' A-list property like Flash, GL, Aquaman etc. that came after Superman and Batman. Its only in more recent years that Wonder Woman is getting the kind of 'special status' that Superman and Batman have, and her movies are a big part of that of course.

    The DCAU's heyday was an era in which Superman and Batman had a near-monopoly on other media outside the comics. Most DC heroes other than these two had only appeared in animation on the Superfriends cartoons a generation ago. WW had had a TV show back in the 70's, and Flash had had a very short-lived TV show in 1990. That was pretty much it. So they basically needed to introduce five 'main' characters who'd had a fraction of the other media exposure the Big Two had had. Obviously decisions needed to be made, and WW got the short-straw.

    Also, I don't 'sexism' comes into it. The show's version of Hawkgirl is IMO the best interpretation of that particular character concept to date.
    DC and WB still treat WW like garbage. They still make her fodder to superman and an idiot next to batman more often than not. There was never a trinity and never will be. They hide behind feminism but they don't put their money where their mouth is. Otherwise they wouldn't allow all the bad treatment WW still gets.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    I don't think anyone here is making excuses for WB and DC. They're trying to explain what the actual people behind the creation of the show did. You know, real human beings with passions and flaws who probably wanted to make the best possible product. I think they largely failed with WW, but we're not going to say Bruce Timm sucks, Dwayne McDuffie (RIP) was sexist, Rich Fogel has a weak ego and is threatened by WW, Dan Riba doesn't care about WW, etc.

    When they transitioned to JLU, I think you can feel up front how much importance they placed on WW, but it did fall flat. Other than making her literally on Batman and Superman's level in the intro, all we got were some uninteresting episodes and crushing on Batman. Yeouch.
    The explanation is they didn't give a damn about the character. They thought she was not ''relatable'' and threw her under the bus. The usual.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Nobody is making excuses. We are just figuring out and putting forth possible reasoning behind their decisions.

    But if you want to use this thread as a reciprocal to repeat how much WB and their treatment of WW sucks over and over again, then be my guest.
    See my respond above. There you have the reasoning behind it.

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