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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I'm not against heroes being flawed if it feels right for the character and doesn't compromise what makes them heroes in the first place. Because then it feels like it defeats the point and is just writing them badly for the sake of some tragic story.
    Which really, is Tom King's bag.

    He overrides internal logic to get to some pre-decided point, that's usually poorly considered at best. Heroes in Crisis is the best example, but not only one

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    I will never understand the anger about heroes being presented as flawed, even fatally so. He had an incredibly difficult decision to make. Maybe he chose wrong but that doesnít make the series slanderous of his character, it only makes him more human. I want to see more flawed characters, not less.
    Flaws shouldn't fundamentally change the character because at that point why are you even using an established character?

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Flaws shouldn't fundamentally change the character because at that point why are you even using an established character?
    Situations can bring out flaws. Keep in mind the impossibly difficult situation he was in. I know most Superman fans believe the killing of Zod was incredibly out of character. I hated that movie but not at all for that reason because he had to make an impossible choice to save thousands of lives, then millions or hold to his no killing rule.

    I did find his failure to even try to save his adoptive father as he blew away into the sky to be infuriating but in that case it was either it was a choice to follow his fathers edict not to expose his powers or save his fatherís life and I found his choice be really offensive, but not the Zod thing. In one case it was to break his fatherís rules for his own benefit (thatís not Superman) or to break his own rule to save innumerable lives (to me, that was an impossible choice so either way he was Superman).

    Itís just a difference of opinion. Some want their heroes to always make the heroic choice, even at the risk of their own family dying. But to me, making the more selfish choice doesnít mean heís no longer a hero, only that heís human.

    Heroes In Crisis is a different matter. I didnít find the reason for the deaths to be irredeemable, but the coverup meant he absolutely wasnít a hero anymore. So itís funny to me that he was Ďfixedí by the fact that he wasnít actually responsible for the deaths when he was still responsible for the coverup and by trying to frame others. I donít think thatís been fixed at all.

    But Strangeís choice was made to save others while Wallyís was made to save himself.

    Again, difference of opinion, but I want my heroes to be imperfect. Without that, the characters never change and are never ethically challenged and that just makes me feel like Iím still reading comics for children.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Situations can bring out flaws. Keep in mind the impossibly difficult situation he was in. I know most Superman fans believe the killing of Zod was incredibly out of character. I hated that movie but not at all for that reason because he had to make an impossible choice to save thousands of lives, then millions or hold to his no killing rule.

    I did find his failure to even try to save his adoptive father as he blew away into the sky to be infuriating but in that case it was either it was a choice to follow his fathers edict not to expose his powers or save his father’s life and I found his choice be really offensive, but not the Zod thing. In one case it was to break his father’s rules for his own benefit (that’s not Superman) or to break his own rule to save innumerable lives (to me, that was an impossible choice so either way he was Superman).

    It’s just a difference of opinion. Some want their heroes to always make the heroic choice, even at the risk of their own family dying. But to me, making the more selfish choice doesn’t mean he’s no longer a hero, only that he’s human.

    Heroes In Crisis is a different matter. I didn’t find the reason for the deaths to be irredeemable, but the coverup meant he absolutely wasn’t a hero anymore. So it’s funny to me that he was ‘fixed’ by the fact that he wasn’t actually responsible for the deaths when he was still responsible for the coverup and by trying to frame others. I don’t think that’s been fixed at all.

    But Strange’s choice was made to save others while Wally’s was made to save himself.

    Again, difference of opinion, but I want my heroes to be imperfect. Without that, the characters never change and are never ethically challenged and that just makes me feel like I’m still reading comics for children.
    Actually, they did retcon Wally's cover-up decision to be caused by Zoom using newly discovered powers.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    Situations can bring out flaws. Keep in mind the impossibly difficult situation he was in. I know most Superman fans believe the killing of Zod was incredibly out of character. I hated that movie but not at all for that reason because he had to make an impossible choice to save thousands of lives, then millions or hold to his no killing rule.

    I did find his failure to even try to save his adoptive father as he blew away into the sky to be infuriating but in that case it was either it was a choice to follow his fathers edict not to expose his powers or save his father’s life and I found his choice be really offensive, but not the Zod thing. In one case it was to break his father’s rules for his own benefit (that’s not Superman) or to break his own rule to save innumerable lives (to me, that was an impossible choice so either way he was Superman).

    It’s just a difference of opinion. Some want their heroes to always make the heroic choice, even at the risk of their own family dying. But to me, making the more selfish choice doesn’t mean he’s no longer a hero, only that he’s human.

    Heroes In Crisis is a different matter. I didn’t find the reason for the deaths to be irredeemable, but the coverup meant he absolutely wasn’t a hero anymore. So it’s funny to me that he was ‘fixed’ by the fact that he wasn’t actually responsible for the deaths when he was still responsible for the coverup and by trying to frame others. I don’t think that’s been fixed at all.

    But Strange’s choice was made to save others while Wally’s was made to save himself.

    Again, difference of opinion, but I want my heroes to be imperfect. Without that, the characters never change and are never ethically challenged and that just makes me feel like I’m still reading comics for children.
    What's the point of Superheroes if they don't overcome their flaws and actually act heroically? If we can't even believe in them as heroes and see them acting out of character, what's the point?

  6. #51
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    It’s just a difference of opinion. Some want their heroes to always make the heroic choice, even at the risk of their own family dying. But to me, making the more selfish choice doesn’t mean he’s no longer a hero, only that he’s human.
    You are writing as if Strange was given choice to save his daughter or his neighbour and decided to save his daughter. Thats not what happened. In order to save his daughter he sacrificed Earth and did multiple war crimes to keep his "cover". And last issue was about to shoot his own wife before she shot him first.

    Edit: I also wonder if it is not very deliberate decision by King since it can be seen as the opposite of his Superman story where Clark decides to save the random girl instead of staying and protecting Earth and Lois. Ultimately it leads to him saving the Earth because every random girl is important and worth saving. Strange does the opposite and in the end (obviously maybe there will be twist in last issue) dooms everyone.
    Last edited by HsssH; 09-25-2021 at 11:29 PM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    You are writing as if Strange was given choice to save his daughter or his neighbour and decided to save his daughter. Thats not what happened. In order to save his daughter he sacrificed Earth and did multiple war crimes to keep his "cover". And last issue was about to shoot his own wife before she shot him first.

    Edit: I also wonder if it is not very deliberate decision by King since it can be seen as the opposite of his Superman story where Clark decides to save the random girl instead of staying and protecting Earth and Lois. Ultimately it leads to him saving the Earth because every random girl is important and worth saving. Strange does the opposite and in the end (obviously maybe there will be twist in last issue) dooms everyone.
    Tom King, because DC couldn't find M. Night :P

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  9. #54
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Well, no surprise the art is beautiful .

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Can't say enough praises about how beautiful this book looks. Tom always gets lucky with who's drawing his books.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Can't say enough praises about how beautiful this book looks. Tom always gets lucky with who's drawing his books.
    Have to agree with that. Tom has been getting really good artist on all his books.
    I guess he has that clout somehow.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKryptonMan View Post
    Have to agree with that. Tom has been getting really good artist on all his books.
    I guess he has that clout somehow.
    Reminds me of Loeb.

    Terrible writer, but he gets returns because he writes popular characters with popular artists.

    ...editors aren't great with cause and effect.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Reminds me of Loeb.

    Terrible writer, but he gets returns because he writes popular characters with popular artists.

    ...editors aren't great with cause and effect.
    Well, I won't call Bendis terrible but he does also have terrific luck with artists.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Well its up to writer to develop working relationship with artists and other people involved in the project. My guess would be that guys like Loeb and Bendis are easy to work with and they had some big hits in the past so good artists are more willing to work with them or continue working with them.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, I won't call Bendis terrible but he does also have terrific luck with artists.
    And he plays with popular characters.

    Towards the end of his Avengers, Bendis was shoe horning in any character who might have a shred of a fanbase to support his drek.

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