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  1. #91
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Batman's wealth has gotten used as the source of funding for a lot of super group bases over the years. Not SOLE funding, but... part of it. So in that context, yeah, he kinda needs to be a billionaire.
    Thats the thing, can't someone else fund them? Or can't some of those groups be without cool tech? I loved that in Batman Inc Man-of-Bats and his son basically did what Batman does with zero outside funding.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Honestly in DC seemingly every rich person is involved with either funding super-exploits, or directly involved.

    Batman's wealth has gotten used as the source of funding for a lot of super group bases over the years. Not SOLE funding, but... part of it. So in that context, yeah, he kinda needs to be a billionaire.

    Personally I think his "no killing" rule is a symptom of insanity and not an indication of moral character.
    Frankly, I like the idea of Bruce being a billionaire for a few reasons:

    1. Its part of the wish-fulfillment aspect of the character IMO.

    2. I like the idea of the Wayne legacy going back generations and being intertwined with the history of Gotham, for better or worse.

    3. While in real-life, no billionaire could afford to do half the crazier things Bruce does, in the context of the DCU, his immense wealth does to an extent explain stuff like the elaborate vehicles and bases, the satellites, funding the friggin' Justice League (and other teams) etc.

    That said, I don't think Bruce should necessarily be one of the wealthiest and most famous people in the world. In Gotham? Sure. Maybe he's a well-known figure in business circles across the US and other countries (where Wayne Enterprises does business). But he doesn't have to be as rich and famous as Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. Let's face it, most real-life billionaires aren't.

    And I agree sometimes the weaponry and gadgets can become overkill. I don't think the money per se is the problem there, its more about what creators want to do with the character (and lets face it, Batman having fancy toys let's DC/WB sell fancy toys in the real-world!) For instance, Bruce is a billionaire in the Nolanverse as well, but his gear wasn't remotely as crazy as it could get in the comics. Money doesn't necessarily equal overkill on gadgets, but overkill on gadgets admittedly does equal money.

  3. #93
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    That he's just a rich white ******* beating up mentally ill patients. Bruce has to punch people in the mouth because you can't solve the Joker with any amount of social programs.
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nonetheless):
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  4. #94
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    1. The take on Alfred where he's Bruce's surrogate father and the most important ally in his life. I'm bored of this take, to be honest, and it's left us with a deified Alfred. I miss the days when Bruce didn't meet Alfred until he was older.

    2. Reading this thread...definitely already sick of "Bruce shouldn't be a billionaire, let's make him less rich to appease the leftists"...and I say that as someone who considers himself a leftist. I especially hate this idea because no one really seems to ask this of other hero billionaires, especially Tony Stark.

    3. "Batman is the real identity, Bruce is a mask"

    4. "Batman is just as crazy as the enemies he fights" or Batman being considered crazy at all.

    5. This sort of unwritten rule DC has had where Grey and Blue Batman with the Oval = Campy/Childish Batman, while that overrated YO outfit has come to represent "Adult" or "Credible" Batman.

    6. "The Batfamily is more interesting than Bruce"

    7. Gotham being a hellhole that can never be truly fixed.

    8. The idea that Bruce would never ever quit being Batman.

    9. The push for Bruce/Selina to be solidified the way Clark/Lois have been.

    10. The Batfamily, at least the modern version of it.

  5. #95
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    1. The take on Alfred where he's Bruce's surrogate father and the most important ally in his life. I'm bored of this take, to be honest, and it's left us with a deified Alfred. I miss the days when Bruce didn't meet Alfred until he was older.
    Agreed.

    2. Reading this thread...definitely already sick of "Bruce shouldn't be a billionaire, let's make him less rich to appease the leftists"...and I say that as someone who considers himself a leftist. I especially hate this idea because no one really seems to ask this of other hero billionaires, especially Tony Stark.
    I personally don't mind billionaire - I just don't like him one of 50 (or even 300) the richest in the world , and I very much dislike how he's used that money in regards to other heroes. And I don't read Tony Stark. Nothing to do with leftists to me. He was always rich, and I'm fine him being rich, but the continuing increase in extremeness of it bothers me. The wealth inflation is, to me, another aspect of BatGodness, which I do very much dislike.

    3. "Batman is the real identity, Bruce is a mask"
    I'm with ya.

    7. Gotham being a hellhole that can never be truly fixed.
    Definitely one I hate.

    10. The Batfamily, at least the modern version of it.
    What do you mean by that? I do have some significant issues with it as often depicted, but I'm not sure if they are the same as yours, given your #6.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-21-2021 at 10:20 AM.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    1. The take on Alfred where he's Bruce's surrogate father and the most important ally in his life. I'm bored of this take, to be honest, and it's left us with a deified Alfred. I miss the days when Bruce didn't meet Alfred until he was older.

    2. Reading this thread...definitely already sick of "Bruce shouldn't be a billionaire, let's make him less rich to appease the leftists"...and I say that as someone who considers himself a leftist. I especially hate this idea because no one really seems to ask this of other hero billionaires, especially Tony Stark.

    3. "Batman is the real identity, Bruce is a mask"

    4. "Batman is just as crazy as the enemies he fights" or Batman being considered crazy at all.

    5. This sort of unwritten rule DC has had where Grey and Blue Batman with the Oval = Campy/Childish Batman, while that overrated YO outfit has come to represent "Adult" or "Credible" Batman.

    6. "The Batfamily is more interesting than Bruce"

    7. Gotham being a hellhole that can never be truly fixed.

    8. The idea that Bruce would never ever quit being Batman.

    9. The push for Bruce/Selina to be solidified the way Clark/Lois have been.

    10. The Batfamily, at least the modern version of it.
    I agree with most of your points (apart from the Alfred one).

    The point about the costume is particularly interesting. I think the grey and blue with the oval has become conflated with ''campy/childish'' Batman as you say mostly because of the Adam West show (and maybe the Superfriends cartoons). And somehow that notion has not just entered the popular consciousness, but has possibly influenced DC as well.

    Its ironic though, because some of the 'darkest' and most serious Batman stories had him in this suit. The Killing Joke, Death in the Family, Knightfall...oh and of course, The Dark Knight Returns (for the first two issues anyway)! In fact, possibly my favorite article about DKR (which you can check out here) talks about how DKR deliberately had Batman wear the classic blue-and-grey suit with the yellow oval in order to drive home the fact that this is the same character from the Adam West show and Silver Age comics, albeit operating in a much more violent context than those earlier stories.

    I guess the yellow oval might see some resurgence with the return of Keaton's Batman next year (not to mention the Batman '89 comics) but the blue-and-grey suit probably won't unless there's a high-profile 'serious' adaptation that makes use of that color scheme...
    Last edited by bat39; 07-22-2021 at 10:26 AM.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    What do you mean by that? I do have some significant issues with it as often depicted, but I'm not sure if they are the same as yours, given your #6.

    The size of it. How, as others have said, Bruce is often depicted as an abusive jerk to make other batfamily members look better. How, because of the size and the desire to have the members have a niche, Dick Grayson, for example, went from being a well rounded crimefighter to being defined by one or two aspects because Tim or whoever needs to be "the smart one".

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    1. The take on Alfred where he's Bruce's surrogate father and the most important ally in his life. I'm bored of this take, to be honest, and it's left us with a deified Alfred. I miss the days when Bruce didn't meet Alfred until he was older.

    2. Reading this thread...definitely already sick of "Bruce shouldn't be a billionaire, let's make him less rich to appease the leftists"...and I say that as someone who considers himself a leftist. I especially hate this idea because no one really seems to ask this of other hero billionaires, especially Tony Stark.

    3. "Batman is the real identity, Bruce is a mask"

    4. "Batman is just as crazy as the enemies he fights" or Batman being considered crazy at all.

    5. This sort of unwritten rule DC has had where Grey and Blue Batman with the Oval = Campy/Childish Batman, while that overrated YO outfit has come to represent "Adult" or "Credible" Batman.

    6. "The Batfamily is more interesting than Bruce"

    7. Gotham being a hellhole that can never be truly fixed.

    8. The idea that Bruce would never ever quit being Batman.

    9. The push for Bruce/Selina to be solidified the way Clark/Lois have been.

    10. The Batfamily, at least the modern version of it.
    That one isn't a mainstream idea.

  9. #99
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    The size of it. How, as others have said, Bruce is often depicted as an abusive jerk to make other batfamily members look better. How, because of the size and the desire to have the members have a niche, Dick Grayson, for example, went from being a well rounded crimefighter to being defined by one or two aspects because Tim or whoever needs to be "the smart one".
    I certainly agree with there too many and the "flattening" of characters. I can't agree with the Batfamily being made to look better being the cause for Bruce being an abusive jerk - he was already an abusive jerk to other heroes in the early post-COIE era before Tim was even introduced. It's just a lot of people don't care when he treats others like crap (think it makes him more badass, I guess), but do care when he treats Batfam members like crap.

  10. #100
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    Reading this thread...definitely already sick of "Bruce shouldn't be a billionaire, let's make him less rich to appease the leftists"...and I say that as someone who considers himself a leftist. I especially hate this idea because no one really seems to ask this of other hero billionaires, especially Tony Stark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I personally don't mind billionaire - I just don't like him one of 50 (or even 300) the richest in the world , and I very much dislike how he's used that money in regards to other heroes. And I don't read Tony Stark. Nothing to do with leftists to me. He was always rich, and I'm fine him being rich, but the continuing increase in extremeness of it bothers me. The wealth inflation is, to me, another aspect of BatGodness, which I do very much dislike.
    The complaint does exist against Tony Stark. I don't read him either and don't care much about him outside of RDJ, and it might not be as extreme as Batman (though it really should be). but it definitely does exist.

    I agree with Tzigone that it's more the wealth inflation and feeding into Bat-God that makes it annoying, along with the other attributes that have gone along with Bat-God/Bat-Jerk (abusive, entitled). The combination doesn't paint a flattering picture. As someone who is mostly a leftist I guess, him being rich by itself doesn't bother me, it's just gotten too absurd and paints a bigger target on his back than he needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBatman View Post
    The size of it. How, as others have said, Bruce is often depicted as an abusive jerk to make other batfamily members look better. How, because of the size and the desire to have the members have a niche, Dick Grayson, for example, went from being a well rounded crimefighter to being defined by one or two aspects because Tim or whoever needs to be "the smart one".
    I agree that Bruce and Dick in particular have taken hits as well rounded characters due to the larger cast, at least at a glance. I sometimes feel like Bruce has had his personality gradually sapped out of him in Bat-family interactions so Dick can be the charming swashbuckling one, because Dick in turn gets flanderized as some Manic Pixie Dream Boy among the Robins with less of a serious/intelligent side and flaws. I feel like both of them are less well rounded, but like Tzigone said it started to creep in pre-Crisis. It's gotten worse, but I'd pin that down to coincidence rather than causation with the growing Bat-family. In general it may be down to DC writers really being in love with the "dark" part of the Dark Knight. Like how people think "Bruce is the dark while Clark is the light, it's like soooooo deep man."

  11. #101
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I think that's less of a size issue and more of a writing issue thanks to those Eternal books.

  12. #102
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    I'm throwing in agreement with the dislike of "Bruce is the mask. Batman is the real guy".

  13. #103
    Mighty Member Lady Nightwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    That Bruce has plans how to take down his friends.
    Totally agree with this. I believe Bruce is probably the greatest human/non powered crime fighter but I can't buy that he could best Superman with enough prep time.

    I don't mind Bruce being a billionaire because he was always shown to be a philanthropist but I hate how his money is used sometimes. Like he has a secret base on the moon. That's ludicrous.

    The whole notion that Bruce Wayne is the true mask is terrible.

    I also hated when Selina stood him up at the wedding because he's only competent if he's crippled with depression.

    I think the Wayne's death was much more tragic when we didn't know the identification of their killer. I love the idea that he spends his whole life protecting other people and helping them get closure, ie. Solving the Graysons murder, but he'll never be able to have that for himself.

    I also hate the theory that Batman and the Joker are perfect opposites, avatars for order and chaos. I'm fine with the Joker believing that I don't buy it personally.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I'm throwing in agreement with the dislike of "Bruce is the mask. Batman is the real guy".
    Agreed.

    Honestly, I think it goes hand in hand with the notion that Bruce is as unhinged as the villains. Because frankly, if we literally take it that ''Bruce Wayne is the mask, Batman is the real person'' then Bruce is insane!

    The essence of the Batman mythos is a man putting on a mask to become a symbol - a symbol of fear for criminals and a symbol of hope for the innocent. But underneath the mask is a man. Once again, this is another aspect the Nolanverse handled well. Its worth noting that Christian Bale is credited as Bruce Wayne in all three movies. Not Batman and not even Bruce Wayne/Batman, but just Bruce Wayne, because that's who he's really playing. Bruce Wayne in turn plays the roles of the billionaire playboy and philantrophist, and of the masked vigilante Batman.

    I'm okay with exploring the long-term psychological ramifications of this double-life on Bruce's psyche. I'm okay with the idea of Batman coming to dominate Bruce's psyche, and him having to deal with that over time. I'm even okay with interpretations where a seriously disturbed Bruce starts to believe that his life as 'Bruce Wayne' is fake and 'Batman' is who he really is, provided we understand that this is coming from his obsession or trauma and is not a healthy thing. But ''Bruce is the mask, Batman is real'' as a simple statement of fact to be accepted at face value without any introspection of its implications is something I just do not agree with.

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I also hate the theory that Batman and the Joker are perfect opposites, avatars for order and chaos. I'm fine with the Joker believing that I don't buy it personally.
    I'm fond of the Golden Age Joker (well, at least at his introduction), who is absolutely not crazy or chaotic. He has strong plans, and is very theatrical. I actually think that is a great match for those similar traits in a Batman who chose the bat motif for its theatricality and ability to strike fear into criminals. But a Joker who is neither insane nor funny is definitely not a mainstream Batman idea, and he's probably been one or the since the silver age. Maybe since later in the golden age - when did they start making him funny, anyway?
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-23-2021 at 03:52 AM.

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